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      02-26-2008, 07:56 AM   #89
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interesting...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayof....ap/index.html
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      02-26-2008, 02:18 PM   #90
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What's your take on this scotty?
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      02-26-2008, 02:31 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
ANd that something is that your parents pre-programmed you and did not let you to think for yourself -- as later shown in your other comments that you're easily influenced by anything else but your brain.

At least, he/she (e90im is questioning something NEVER proven to exist...
There is an obvious reason why Church is left out of constitution....
Oh great insult... Is that what you do when you cant debate you turn it into personal attacks?
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      02-26-2008, 02:35 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
Quotes prove nothing, and are silly to even bring in to the debate. I can find just as many quotes from the Found Fathers decrying religion as the greatest evil in the world, and saying that it has no place in modern society.

There are two references in the Constitution. One in the Bill of Rights, and another later on in the document, a negative, stating that there shall be no religious test for public office.

One can make the weak argument that many of our laws are based around Christian principles. Wellfare for example, or medicaid (I know, I'm a jerk), and of course many of the most base laws of the land. This however ignores the fact that NONE of these morals are exclusively Christian, or even Christian in origin. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all share the same God, and basic principles. Many of these, however, are also included in much older Eastern Religions, along with those of many of the Native North Americans.

There is absolutely no principle, moral, or influence in our constitution that is exlcusively Christian. Though many of the Founders were devout men, they had the wisdom to leave religion out of the Constitution, and the basic laws of the land. Theocracy of any form simply does NOT work out to be in the best interest of the people. If you need evidence of that, look to Middle Eastern theocratic states.

I look at that failure, and view integrating religion into government as a VERY slippery slope. All it takes is a Constitutional Ammendment denying people's rights based on religion, superstition, or any supernatural belief, and I leave. That's when this country starts going the way of the Dodo, the founders ideals thrown into the garbage can. In reality, a law based on the tenents of ONE religion cannot exist at the same time as the First Ammendment. There are religions that approve of Gay Marriage, and to try to out law it, would infact, violate one of the basics of the First Ammendment, because at that point, the establishment and practice of one religion has been trumped by a tennent of a select few fundamentalists.

That is my basic argument. It has nothing to do with the religion of the founders. I'm just a steadfast opponent of theocracy, and a steadfast proponent of the rights of the people and the constitution, that wonderfully flexible document our founders created.

Thats not the point I am making.. My point was that the country was founded on Christian ideals, it has nothing to do with the constitution or the bill of rights.. I pointed out in plain view that our declaration of independence aka our founding of a country document was written by christians with christian ideals.. The constitution is nothing more than the bland laws of the land same with the bill of rights.. But the declaration shows the true beliefs of the founding fathers saying our country will only exists with the help of god.


I know some of you might think I am some religious nut I am not I dont even go to church, but one thing is I am no ignorant when it comes to history and my statement that this country was founded on christian ideals is correct.
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      02-26-2008, 02:36 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by AndrewAZ View Post
Oh great insult... Is that what you do when you cant debate you turn it into personal attacks?
Did not want it to be a personal attack actually...
But I see things liek that every day around me -- at least one (positive) benefit of coming where I came from...

As for debate with you...no point debating someone 1/2 of my age...been there and remember how hard headed I was...
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      02-26-2008, 03:12 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by AndrewAZ View Post
Thats not the point I am making.. My point was that the country was founded on Christian ideals, it has nothing to do with the constitution or the bill of rights.. I pointed out in plain view that our declaration of independence aka our founding of a country document was written by christians with christian ideals.. The constitution is nothing more than the bland laws of the land same with the bill of rights.. But the declaration shows the true beliefs of the founding fathers saying our country will only exists with the help of god.


I know some of you might think I am some religious nut I am not I dont even go to church, but one thing is I am no ignorant when it comes to history and my statement that this country was founded on christian ideals is correct.

Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Jesus mentioned.
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      02-26-2008, 04:15 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
What's your take on this scotty?
78% Christian
51% Protestant (~5% just Protestant)
12% unaffiliated
04% Atheist/Agnostic
~06% faith is somewhat important
01.7% Jew

00.7% Buddhist
~50% Budhists are white and mostly converts to Buddhism
<01% Muslim

44% left the religion/denomination in which they were raised
~25% left the religion in which they were raised
~10% Americans are ex-Catholic
~50% of Catholics <30yrs old are Latino

raised Hindu 84% retention
raised Jehovah's Witness 37% retention

increasing non-demoninational
New Evangelicals come from Protestants
decreasing Baptist
decreasing Methodist

"The religious demographic benefiting the most from this religious churn is those who claim no religious affiliation. People moving into that category outnumber those moving out of it by a three-to-one margin."
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      02-26-2008, 04:38 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewAZ View Post
Thats not the point I am making.. My point was that the country was founded on Christian ideals, it has nothing to do with the constitution or the bill of rights.. I pointed out in plain view that our declaration of independence aka our founding of a country document was written by christians with christian ideals.. The constitution is nothing more than the bland laws of the land same with the bill of rights.. But the declaration shows the true beliefs of the founding fathers saying our country will only exists with the help of god.


I know some of you might think I am some religious nut I am not I dont even go to church, but one thing is I am no ignorant when it comes to history and my statement that this country was founded on christian ideals is correct.

I can't see any exclusively Christian ideals in the Decleration either, but correct me if I'm wrong.
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      02-26-2008, 04:43 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I can't see any exclusively Christian ideals in the Decleration either, but correct me if I'm wrong.
How could you???
Can you imagine your kid going to (public) school in the morning and praying to Jesus while the Jewish and Muslim kids sit next to him/her...

These republucan nutties are turning this country into something really really wrong...
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      02-26-2008, 05:18 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I can't see any exclusively Christian ideals in the Decleration either, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Nope I never said exclusively but when they refer to god the argument here was which god.. I stated the founding fathers were referring to their Christian god since they were all of a Christian faith.

My entire point was they had a belief in god and relied upon their belief in writing the founding documents. The basic rights of humans were derived form a belief in a god which the constitution and bill of rights were based on, the philosopher that came up with these basic rights that were directly copied into our documents as basic human rights got these beliefs again from his Christian basis and his belief in god.
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      02-26-2008, 05:21 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Did not want it to be a personal attack actually...
But I see things liek that every day around me -- at least one (positive) benefit of coming where I came from...

As for debate with you...no point debating someone 1/2 of my age...been there and remember how hard headed I was...
Again personal attacks.... I guess your a democrat?
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      02-26-2008, 05:34 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Jesus mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Darwin mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Plato mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Socrates mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is democracy mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is social mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is atheist mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is agnostic mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is hope mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is dream mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is love mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Democrat mentioned.

But...
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      02-26-2008, 07:25 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewAZ View Post
Nope I never said exclusively but when they refer to god the argument here was which god.. I stated the founding fathers were referring to their Christian god since they were all of a Christian faith.

My entire point was they had a belief in god and relied upon their belief in writing the founding documents. The basic rights of humans were derived form a belief in a god which the constitution and bill of rights were based on, the philosopher that came up with these basic rights that were directly copied into our documents as basic human rights got these beliefs again from his Christian basis and his belief in god.
I'd argue that the idea of Natural Rights was not Christian in origin. Actually, they were first enforced by Islamic nations, ironically enough. The Koran is actually the earliest document that specifies "life" as a RIGHT that all are entitled to. In the Western world, these concepts were popularized by Locke, Hobbes, and Paine (though his work wasn't finished till after the Declaration and Constitution).

PS: I know it kind of gets into a debate of semantics after a certain point. My original point is that I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a theocracy, or the idea of dogmatic beliefs resulting in the creation of laws that are detrimental to ANY law abiding citizen, just as I'm uncomfortable with the government doing anything to diminish the rights of free-speach, or anything else that I personally consider fundamental to the greatness of our country.
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      02-26-2008, 07:28 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Darwin mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Plato mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Socrates mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is democracy mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is social mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is atheist mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is agnostic mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is hope mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is dream mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is love mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Democrat mentioned.

But...

The claim was made that US is founded on Christianity. My challenge was to provide reference where Jesus is mentioned.
Darwin, Plato and Socrates?? What is your point??
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      02-26-2008, 08:38 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by AndrewAZ View Post
Again personal attacks.... I guess your a democrat?
What kind of whiner are you if I tell you that I rely on my experience vs. your googling...and you see it as a personal attack?

Get real.
No I am not a democrat but would never vote for the republican till they clean their act and start doing something for the future of my kids instead for the future of my grandfather....
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      02-26-2008, 08:40 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Darwin mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Plato mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Socrates mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is democracy mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is social mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is atheist mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is agnostic mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is hope mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is dream mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is love mentioned.
  • Nowhere in Constitution or the Bill of rights is Democrat mentioned.

But...
Where is OFFENSE mentioned??? All we have been doing lately is occupying other countries and offending nations... Ah, I get it, W went AGAINST the Constitution...
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      02-26-2008, 08:49 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BKsBimmer View Post
The problem I have always had with fundamentalists of any faith is their sheer arrogance. As if they are chosen and "right" and all others are wrong and therefore cast out.

You say secularism doesn't allow for the possibility that they might be wrong.

I'd like to know what you think about the possibility that YOU may be wrong? I'm sure the thought never occurred to you.
Luke 18:7
And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?

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      02-26-2008, 09:06 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I'd argue that the idea of Natural Rights was not Christian in origin. Actually, they were first enforced by Islamic nations, ironically enough. The Koran is actually the earliest document that specifies "life" as a RIGHT that all are entitled to. In the Western world, these concepts were popularized by Locke, Hobbes, and Paine (though his work wasn't finished till after the Declaration and Constitution).

PS: I know it kind of gets into a debate of semantics after a certain point. My original point is that I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a theocracy, or the idea of dogmatic beliefs resulting in the creation of laws that are detrimental to ANY law abiding citizen, just as I'm uncomfortable with the government doing anything to diminish the rights of free-speach, or anything else that I personally consider fundamental to the greatness of our country.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
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      02-26-2008, 09:21 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
The claim was made that US is founded on Christianity. My challenge was to provide reference where Jesus is mentioned.
Darwin, Plato and Socrates?? What is your point??
By your own argument against the Bible, it doesn't matter why you were writing or even that you were responding to AndrewAZ with your writing. It was the response that you had written that mattered, and this is where I focused my comment. I commented on your written words alone to show that your argument is no argument at all.

In other words, the Constitution is a response to what was already accepted as the source of our society. That source is the Bible.

Your response regarding the Constitution is like my response to your statement. Both are without benefit of the original context. If you want the original context, you need to go digging for it. You likely will not do that unless you care about the source of the conversation.
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      02-26-2008, 09:23 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
What kind of whiner are you if I tell you that I rely on my experience vs. your googling...and you see it as a personal attack?

Get real.
No I am not a democrat but would never vote for the republican till they clean their act and start doing something for the future of my kids instead for the future of my grandfather....
I posted one link doesnt mean I googled anything else.. I have taken US history and simply pointed out that all our founding fathers and ideals they based the founding documents on were of some Christian origin. This is a historical fact that you cant get around.. Yet others like yourself and e90tim try and change the topic.

BMW wrote the manual for your car... BMW wrote it with BMW terminology and inserted BMW new technology. So you and e90tim are basically saying hold it hold it BMW did not write it for just a BMW, they wrote it for all cars. Well you have point since almost all cars have the same basic things but again I point to the fact that the BMW manual has certain BMW ideas and terminology that only come with BMW.

Catch my drift? Christians wrote the founding documents. Used Christian ideals and words. Yet some of the ideas are found in other religions that you pointed out. But again the underlying theme and ideas come from the original Christian writers who were heavily influenced by Christianity. But despite this both of you disagree.... And quickly start personal attacks instead of refuting what I have said with factual information.
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      02-26-2008, 09:30 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82tt6 View Post
I'd argue that the idea of Natural Rights was not Christian in origin. Actually, they were first enforced by Islamic nations, ironically enough. The Koran is actually the earliest document that specifies "life" as a RIGHT that all are entitled to. In the Western world, these concepts were popularized by Locke, Hobbes, and Paine (though his work wasn't finished till after the Declaration and Constitution).

PS: I know it kind of gets into a debate of semantics after a certain point. My original point is that I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a theocracy, or the idea of dogmatic beliefs resulting in the creation of laws that are detrimental to ANY law abiding citizen, just as I'm uncomfortable with the government doing anything to diminish the rights of free-speach, or anything else that I personally consider fundamental to the greatness of our country.
No it doesn't get into a debate on semantics, since we know the backgrounds of the writers and they were all Christian. So by using a thing called logic we can connect 1+2 and it indeed equals 2.

The thing is no matter who is in power your limits and rights we have had since 1776 wont go away.. Thats the beauty of our founding documents no matter who is in power the basic underlying rights and rules stay the same. And if people in power decide to abuse or ignore the underlying basic rights again its written in we can revolt against the government.

And again huckabee realizes that we need the keep the right to have arms incase we do decide one day to revolt. Yet the liberals are taking away our guns and gun rights and basically making a tyranny, since the government will not live in fear of us, as the old saying goes a government that lives in fear of its people is a democracy, when people live in fear of the government you have a tyranny. And again our second amendment right is to allow in a justified case to have a revolution to either restore the original constitution or make a new one.
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      02-26-2008, 11:12 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
By your own argument against the Bible, it doesn't matter why you were writing or even that you were responding to AndrewAZ with your writing. It was the response that you had written that mattered, and this is where I focused my comment. I commented on your written words alone to show that your argument is no argument at all.

In other words, the Constitution is a response to what was already accepted as the source of our society. That source is the Bible.

Your response regarding the Constitution is like my response to your statement. Both are without benefit of the original context. If you want the original context, you need to go digging for it. You likely will not do that unless you care about the source of the conversation.

Let me rephrase my response so that you understand:

The claim was made that US is founded on Christianity. My challenge was to provide reference in the constitution or bill of rights where Jesus is mentioned.
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