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      02-25-2008, 03:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Do you defend the right of all persons to the free exercise of religion? Or would you prohibit?
I would NEVER prohibit religion. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
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      02-25-2008, 05:28 PM   #68
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The FIRST amendment is the separation of the church and state!!!!!!

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...."

And WHICH God was this nation founded on? As you well know all the religions require that you MUST worship a specific God, or you go to hell!!!
It was founding on the Christian god.. And like I posted for you in another topic every major founding document shows that our rights come from a divine power and that the formation of our country is being declared legal and will be successful because of divine providence.

So if you take religion out of politics then you wouldn't have the great country we live in, since the fundamental base of our country is religion. People came to America because of religion, religion founded our government, so why take it out? Religion in the christian respect referring to the bible is nothing more of life stories of what is right and what is wrong and what to do and what not to do. The 10 commandments yes religious text but also basic laws.
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      02-25-2008, 05:31 PM   #69
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It was founding on the Christian god.. And like I posted for you in another topic every major founding document shows that our rights come from a divine power and that the formation of our country is being declared legal and will be successful because of divine providence.

So if you take religion out of politics then you wouldn't have the great country we live in, since the fundamental base of our country is religion. People came to America because of religion, religion founded our government, so why take it out? Religion in the christian respect referring to the bible is nothing more of life stories of what is right and what is wrong and what to do and what not to do. The 10 commandments yes religious text but also basic laws.
Prove it.
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      02-25-2008, 06:30 PM   #70
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Prove it.
Well who else came here in the beginning? Christians in some denomination or another. Adam Smith was a christian and so where all the others that the US ideal was based on. All of our founding fathers were christian, so who do you think they were talking about when referring to god and protection from a divine providence?

No offense but learning to infer is a high school skill, and if you cant infer that the "god" the US was based on written by christian founders and thus the god they refer to is a christian one thats just sad.

Go take a US history class and stop trying to refute the facts based on something that YOU might feel is wrong or should be wrong.
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      02-25-2008, 07:31 PM   #71
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Well who else came here in the beginning? Christians in some denomination or another. Adam Smith was a christian and so where all the others that the US ideal was based on. All of our founding fathers were christian, so who do you think they were talking about when referring to god and protection from a divine providence?

No offense but learning to infer is a high school skill, and if you cant infer that the "god" the US was based on written by christian founders and thus the god they refer to is a christian one thats just sad.

Go take a US history class and stop trying to refute the facts based on something that YOU might feel is wrong or should be wrong.
I will accept evidence, NOT mumbo-jumbo assumptions. Assumed, implied, allegorical, anecdotal...NOT accepted.

Please be specific, since you are US history expert.
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      02-25-2008, 08:11 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I will accept evidence, NOT mumbo-jumbo assumptions. Assumed, implied, allegorical, anecdotal...NOT accepted.

Please be specific, since you are US history expert.
Be specific on what..


All of the founding fathers were of some denomination of Christianity. Are you disputing this?

Jefferson wrote most of the declaration of independence again shocking it might seem he was also of Christian faith. A lot of his ideas were from John Locke/Adam Smith ect who were all again a Christian philosophers which most of our constitution and declaration of independence is based on.


"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. "


"the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Again direct excerpts from the declaration of independence. So I dont get what your issue is besides your personal beliefes..

You tell me which god all these christians writers were writing about then? Since if they were writing about another god that would be a sin in their own religion.

How about this... Lets play the opposite since at this point I think you are clearly in need of help.. Prove to me that the US was not founded by Christians, simply you cant since the religion played the role not a major part but the actual entire role of the founding of our country.
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      02-25-2008, 09:07 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I would NEVER prohibit religion. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit speech. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit the press. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit the people peaceably to assemble. It MUST stay out of public office, though.

These three sentences make as much sense as your sentence.

The words shown below are the real deal:
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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      02-25-2008, 10:09 PM   #74
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There is no specific reference to Christianity or Jesus in the Declaration of independence. There are a few references to a 'Nature's God' who is the creator of life, giver of rights and 'supreme Judge of the world' but that is rather vague.
"the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"

Notice that it specifically describes 'Natures God', this is a more generic idea of God, this is god as nature.
"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
This does describes God as a creator of life and giver of rights but goes no further.
"appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions"
Here God is the 'Supreme Judge'.
It is expected that people of the time would speak of a god, there was little to no doubt at that time of God's existence, but there was plenty of doubt about Christianity among the framers. In order to justify their defiance of the King they had to invoke a higher authority and make the case that they were endowed with the higher power's blessing.

The constitution is a godless document. It mentions neither God, Jesus nor Christianity. It does however have a provision against requiring specific religious ideas as a qualification for office.
Article VI, Section 3
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
Treaty of Tripoli, article 11
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen..."
John Adams- 2nd president, Proposed and signed the Treaty of Tripoli
"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years."
letter to John Taylor, 1814, quoted by Norman Cousins in In God We Trust: The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1958), p. 106-7, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief
Thomas Jefferson- 3rd president, Drafted Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution, influential on 1st Amendment
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." [Notes on Virginia]

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" [Letter to von Humboldt, 1813].

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." [Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823]

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" [Letter to H. Spafford, 1814].
"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.'" [Jefferson's Biography]
James Madison- 4th president, influential in the Constitutional Convention, Proposed the 1st Amendment
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." [April 1, 1774]
Benjamin Franklin- signer of Declaration of Independence, signer of Constitution
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."
[Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758]
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."

"He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard." [Franklin's Autobiography]
George Washington - 1st president
After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."
In a sermon of October 1831, Episcopalian minister Bird Wilson said,
"Among all of our Presidents, from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
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      02-25-2008, 10:14 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I would NEVER prohibit speech. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit the press. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit the people peaceably to assemble. It MUST stay out of public office, though.

These three sentences make as much sense as your sentence.

The words shown below are the real deal:
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Do you trully NOT understand the 1st Amendment? Are you kidding me?

James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state." "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."

This attitude is further reflected in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, originally authored by Thomas Jefferson, but championed by Madison, and guaranteeing that no one may be compelled to finance any religion or denomination.
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      02-25-2008, 10:22 PM   #76
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Separation of Church and State
The words 'Separation of Church and State' are not expressly written in the Constitution or the Bill of rights. Rather it is based on Jefferson's interpretation of the 'Establishment ' clause that James Madison introduced in the 1st amendment.

Article VI, Section 3 of the Constitution
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
First Amendment to the Constitution

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Thomas Jefferson's interpretation of the first amendment
in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802)

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."


James Madison's summary of the First Amendment:
"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform" (Annals of Congress, Sat Aug. 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731)

More thoughts from Madison:
"...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" [Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819]

"Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" [Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822].

U.S. Supreme Court
Hugo Black U.S. Supreme Court Justice (1886-1971)
"The establishment of religion clause of the First Amendment means at least this: neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion."
[Majority opinion Emerson v. Board of Education 330 U.S. 1 (1947)]

Warren Burger, Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court:
'The Lemon Test', in the majority opinion in Lemon v. Kurtzman (1971). It Determines if a law is permissible under the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

A law must have a secular purpose.
It must have a primary effect which neither advances nor inhibits religion.
It must avoid excessive entanglement of church and state.
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      02-25-2008, 10:40 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Do you trully NOT understand the 1st Amendment? Are you kidding me?
What you argue is not the same as your statement copied again for you here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
I would NEVER prohibit religion. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
Your statement is ridiculous as worded. Your intent may be different than your words indicate. My reply was most appropriate to illustrate the absurdity:

I would NEVER prohibit religion. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit speech. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit the press. It MUST stay out of public office, though.
I would NEVER prohibit the people peaceably to assemble. It MUST stay out of public office, though.

The words shown below are the real deal:
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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      02-25-2008, 11:00 PM   #78
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scottww dont even waste your time... This guy has issues and is placing his personal feelings and his personal thoughts into history rather than going by the facts.. He wont even accept the fact that the founding fathers believed in god and the founding documents are heavily influenced by the founding fathers faith in god. Which again they even clearly say "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. " which basically means they are relying on the protection of god.
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      02-25-2008, 11:08 PM   #79
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scottww dont even waste your time... This guy has issues and is placing his personal feelings and his personal thoughts into history rather than going by the facts.. He wont even accept the fact that the founding fathers believed in god and the founding documents are heavily influenced by the founding fathers faith in god. Which again they even clearly say "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. " which basically means they are relying on the protection of god.
You said that we are a Christian nation. I dare you find ONE reference of Jesus Christ in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. ONE!!!!
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      02-25-2008, 11:08 PM   #80
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scottww dont even waste your time... This guy has issues and is placing his personal feelings and his personal thoughts into history rather than going by the facts.. He wont even accept the fact that the founding fathers believed in god and the founding documents are heavily influenced by the founding fathers faith in god. Which again they even clearly say "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor. " which basically means they are relying on the protection of god.
Very true. I don't spend much time debating him any more. I have other debates that are more interesting. Do you think he will bottom out soon? And see the truth that he has denied so long?
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      02-25-2008, 11:31 PM   #81
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You said that we are a Christian nation. I dare you find ONE reference of Jesus Christ in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. ONE!!!!
I pointed out in the declaration of independence. The Constitution and bill of rights are laws of the land that were based on beliefs of the founding fathers and christian philosophers and are based on such things as the 10 commandments and other biblical ethics.

Good site you need to read and understand.

http://www.covenantnews.com/davidnew041014.htm


The mistake modern secularists make is obvious. They take a twentieth century concept like "secularism" and read it back into the Constitution. They take a concept that didn't even exist in the eighteenth century and attribute it to the framers of the Constitution. Unfortunately, this is a very common mistake. The fact that the word "God" does not appear in the Constitution means little. It is actually a rather shallow observation. The reality is "God" is in every word of the Constitution, including the punctuation. Below the surface of the words in the Constitution, there are a mountain of ideas that made its formation possible. The belief that God exists and that all nations of the world are subject to Him sits on the summit of that mountain. As the Supreme Court of Florida said in 1950: "Different species of democracy have existed for more than 2,000 years, but democracy as we know it has never existed among the unchurched. A people unschooled about the sovereignty of God, the ten commandments and the ethics of Jesus, could never have evolved the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. There is not one solitary fundamental principle of our democratic policy that did not stem directly from the basic moral concepts as embodied in the Decalog and the ethics of Jesus . . . No one knew this better than the Founding Fathers." Note 3.

Special Note: Even if the word "God" was in the Constitution it probably would not make any difference. Secularist groups like the ACLU would probably dismiss it as a mere formality. There are 50 reasons to believe that this is true. Since secularists dismiss all references to God in the state constitutions, there is no reason to believe that they would behave any differently with the federal Constitution. Their commitment to secularism will not allow for the possibility that they might be wrong. Interestingly, in 1915 there was one state supreme court which said that the reference to "in the year of our Lord" in the U.S. Constitution was a reference to Jesus Christ! Note 4.
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      02-25-2008, 11:32 PM   #82
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Very true. I don't spend much time debating him any more. I have other debates that are more interesting. Do you think he will bottom out soon? And see the truth that he has denied so long?
Eventually.. Something in his life will happen that will cause a change in his beliefs it happens to all of us, some of us require only a little nudge while others require a life changing event.
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      02-25-2008, 11:39 PM   #83
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Eventually.. Something in his life will happen that will cause a change in his beliefs it happens to all of us, some of us require only a little nudge while others require a life changing event.
For me it was more than a nudge some 25 years ago.
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      02-26-2008, 12:24 AM   #84
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Their commitment to secularism will not allow for the possibility that they might be wrong.
The problem I have always had with fundamentalists of any faith is their sheer arrogance. As if they are chosen and "right" and all others are wrong and therefore cast out.

You say secularism doesn't allow for the possibility that they might be wrong.

I'd like to know what you think about the possibility that YOU may be wrong? I'm sure the thought never occurred to you.
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      02-26-2008, 12:25 AM   #85
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Religion is for the weak minds.........
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      02-26-2008, 12:38 AM   #86
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The problem I have always had with fundamentalists of any faith is their sheer arrogance. As if they are chosen and "right" and all others are wrong and therefore cast out.

You say secularism doesn't allow for the possibility that they might be wrong.

I'd like to know what you think about the possibility that YOU may be wrong? I'm sure the thought never occurred to you.
Again the sheer arrogance and lack of reading is what puzzles me.. I didnt not write what you quoted. I copied and pasted that form a site for another member here that can no accept history.

This has nothing to do with religion or who is right or who is wrong. I am simply pointing out historical facts that our country was founded on christian basis, by christians and the documents that founded the country have been heavily influenced by religion. My point was having religion in politics is not a bad thing since after all it was what founded our country and directed our founding fathers to create what they did and it also guides current members of government.
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      02-26-2008, 01:11 AM   #87
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Quotes prove nothing, and are silly to even bring in to the debate. I can find just as many quotes from the Found Fathers decrying religion as the greatest evil in the world, and saying that it has no place in modern society.

There are two references in the Constitution. One in the Bill of Rights, and another later on in the document, a negative, stating that there shall be no religious test for public office.

One can make the weak argument that many of our laws are based around Christian principles. Wellfare for example, or medicaid (I know, I'm a jerk), and of course many of the most base laws of the land. This however ignores the fact that NONE of these morals are exclusively Christian, or even Christian in origin. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all share the same God, and basic principles. Many of these, however, are also included in much older Eastern Religions, along with those of many of the Native North Americans.

There is absolutely no principle, moral, or influence in our constitution that is exlcusively Christian. Though many of the Founders were devout men, they had the wisdom to leave religion out of the Constitution, and the basic laws of the land. Theocracy of any form simply does NOT work out to be in the best interest of the people. If you need evidence of that, look to Middle Eastern theocratic states.

I look at that failure, and view integrating religion into government as a VERY slippery slope. All it takes is a Constitutional Ammendment denying people's rights based on religion, superstition, or any supernatural belief, and I leave. That's when this country starts going the way of the Dodo, the founders ideals thrown into the garbage can. In reality, a law based on the tenents of ONE religion cannot exist at the same time as the First Ammendment. There are religions that approve of Gay Marriage, and to try to out law it, would infact, violate one of the basics of the First Ammendment, because at that point, the establishment and practice of one religion has been trumped by a tennent of a select few fundamentalists.

That is my basic argument. It has nothing to do with the religion of the founders. I'm just a steadfast opponent of theocracy, and a steadfast proponent of the rights of the people and the constitution, that wonderfully flexible document our founders created.
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      02-26-2008, 07:53 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewAZ View Post
Eventually.. Something in his life will happen that will cause a change in his beliefs it happens to all of us, some of us require only a little nudge while others require a life changing event.
ANd that something is that your parents pre-programmed you and did not let you to think for yourself -- as later shown in your other comments that you're easily influenced by anything else but your brain.

At least, he/she (e90im is questioning something NEVER proven to exist...
There is an obvious reason why Church is left out of constitution....
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