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View Poll Results: What influenced BMW USA's M3 pricing the most?
KILL Lexus IS-F and AMG C63 and keep the segment to themselves 39 25.32%
BMW 335i was such a good car, the M3 couldn't command a bigger premium 18 11.69%
US Economy slowing down in 2008 27 17.53%
To hit the unit goal of 100,000 units, need to price the car to hit these volumes 70 45.45%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-16-2008, 09:04 PM   #67
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Read the whole thread, I was describing all the characteristics of the LS7 and fuel economy is good....but it would not influence my buying decision.

gbb357 insists that I am self-contradicting..... In my private world, some factors how I evaluate an engine:
  • Power
  • Powerband
  • Technology
  • Engine accessories (i.e. electric water pump)
  • Packaging / weight
  • Fuel economy
  • Displacement
ISF delivers on POWER only in my private world. The LS7 delivers on everything except displacement, which is why I like it. The S85 delivers everything except fuel economy?

Clear as mud?
Well, besides the fact that the M3's V8 is a high revving, low torque V8 and the IS-F has a larger V8 with more torque, both cars have similar engine tech.

Both V8's have variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust cams. Both have multi-stage intake systems. Here is some engine info:

The 2008 Lexus IS F is exclusively powered by a performance-tuned 5.0-liter V8 engine producing 416 horsepower at 6,600 rpm and 371 lb.-ft. of peak torque at 5,200 rpm. With the implementation of a dual air intake system, high-flow cylinder heads with titanium intake valves designed by Yamaha, Variable Valve Timing with intelligence and Electrically controlled intake cam (VVT-iE) and other technological advancements, the engine outputs 83.2 hp per liter allowing the IS F to accelerate from 0 to 60 in a blistering 4.6 seconds and achieve a maximum track speed of 170 mph.

The whole displacement argument has always been dumb to me. You build an entire car, not just the engine. Maybe Lexus wanted to go the route of more displacement to achieve more torque? They were getting a 100HP a liter 10 years ago. I don't think they would have a problem doing it now.
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      01-16-2008, 09:05 PM   #68
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What exactly don't i get? THis whole discussion started with you trolling. I never disputed about BMW's place. THat's not what we're talking about. If anything i have repeatedly said that BMW is way ahead of the game and everyone is playing catch up and also said that in the handling category they dominate. You still have not prove anything about the ISF's engine being weak, not advance, and non-stellar. On the spamming issue, go see post #64.



OK, I am happy you see the world with BMW on top. If you wish to carry on by PM on why the ISF is weak, I would be happy to.....but I am not sure if there is a need because I think I have proved my point and because:

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      01-16-2008, 09:12 PM   #69
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LOL!^^^^ NO! You have not proven anything except the fact that you only know how to troll. You obviously don't have the inteligence to have a serious discussion, but you're very good at saying that "Lexus sucks". But if that's what floats your boat, then so be it.
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      01-16-2008, 09:17 PM   #70
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Thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
Well, besides the fact that the M3's V8 is a high revving, low torque V8 and the IS-F has a larger V8 with more torque, both cars have similar engine tech.

Both V8's have variable valve timing on both intake and exhaust cams. Both have multi-stage intake systems. Here is some engine info:

The 2008 Lexus IS F is exclusively powered by a performance-tuned 5.0-liter V8 engine producing 416 horsepower at 6,600 rpm and 371 lb.-ft. of peak torque at 5,200 rpm. With the implementation of a dual air intake system, high-flow cylinder heads with titanium intake valves designed by Yamaha, Variable Valve Timing with intelligence and Electrically controlled intake cam (VVT-iE) and other technological advancements, the engine outputs 83.2 hp per liter allowing the IS F to accelerate from 0 to 60 in a blistering 4.6 seconds and achieve a maximum track speed of 170 mph.

The whole displacement argument has always been dumb to me. You build an entire car, not just the engine. Maybe Lexus wanted to go the route of more displacement to achieve more torque? They were getting a 100HP a liter 10 years ago. I don't think they would have a problem doing it now.
Let me save you the time, Tbone will say "Lexus sucks".
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      01-16-2008, 09:20 PM   #71
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LOL!^^^^ NO! You have not proven anything except the fact that you only know how to troll. You obviously don't have the inteligence to have a serious discussion, but you're very good at saying that "Lexus sucks". But if that's what floats your boat, then so be it.

There is a difference between intentionally making fun of a marque and not getting data.

I have proven the ISF V8 is heavier than the IS350 V6. We know the S65 V8 delivers more power at a lower weight than the outgoing S54 I6 (which was a hot engine in its day). I hope you have the capacity to understand this.

Have fun with your Lexus cars, don't fall asleep driving sport
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      01-16-2008, 09:36 PM   #72
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There is a difference between intentionally making fun of a marque and not getting data.

I have proven the ISF V8 is heavier than the IS350 V6. We know the S65 V8 delivers more power at a lower weight than the outgoing S54 I6 (which was a hot engine in its day). I hope you have the capacity to understand this.

Have fun with your Lexus cars, don't fall asleep driving sport
Riiiight. And we where discussing the weight of the ISF engine vs IS350 engine. I thought we where discussing how you think that the ISF's engine is weak, not advance, and non-stellar. And you still have not proven that. Do you have the capacity to understand this or you just like to change the subject because you don't really have any answers. C'mon Tbone, keep up with me here.
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      01-16-2008, 09:55 PM   #73
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Riiiight. And we where discussing the weight of the ISF engine vs IS350 engine. I thought we where discussing how you think that the ISF's engine is weak, not advance, and non-stellar. And you still have not proven that. Do you have the capacity to understand this or you just like to change the subject because you don't really have any answers. C'mon Tbone, keep up with me here.

Since the only thing we have is the car weight of the ISF, which is heavy BTW, you need to look at other bits of data to calculate the relative weight of the ISF engine.

Sit down for a sec to see if you can absorb this logic.....
  • The IS350 is powered by a V6 and the IS350 should weigh approximately the same as the S54 I6
  • When Lexus bolted on the spare parts, the ISF weighs 300 pounds more than the IS350
  • The ISF also added more weight upfront and changed the static weight distribution in the wrong way
  • Doing the math backwards, a reasonable inferrence would be that the ISF engines weighs 100-150 pounds more than the IS350 engine
  • Assuming the IS350 engine weighs the same as the S54 I6, it is reasonable to conclude that Lexus couldn't deliver the extra horsepower without adding 100-150 pounds
  • Whereas BMW added horsepower while reducing the weight of the engine
  • Here is where you need to pay attention.... It can be reasonably inferred the the S65 weighs less than the ISF engine
  • Hence ISF Engine = Boat Anchor
All these issues would be moot if Lexus was actually proud of the ISF engine and published the exact specs. It is like the drunken brother than nobody talks about.

Have fun in your souped up Camry

I would be happy to school you in boolean logic by PM.

Feel free to continue this thread on M3 pricing by discussing ISF boat anchors.
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      01-16-2008, 10:29 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Since the only thing we have is the car weight of the ISF, which is heavy BTW, you need to look at other bits of data to calculate the relative weight of the ISF engine.

Sit down for a sec to see if you can absorb this logic.....
  • The IS350 is powered by a V6 and the IS350 should weigh approximately the same as the S54 I6
  • When Lexus bolted on the spare parts, the ISF weighs 300 pounds more than the IS350
  • The ISF also added more weight upfront and changed the static weight distribution in the wrong way
  • Doing the math backwards, a reasonable inferrence would be that the ISF engines weighs 100-150 pounds more than the IS350 engine
  • Assuming the IS350 engine weighs the same as the S54 I6, it is reasonable to conclude that Lexus couldn't deliver the extra horsepower without adding 100-150 pounds
  • Whereas BMW added horsepower while reducing the weight of the engine
  • Here is where you need to pay attention.... It can be reasonably inferred the the S65 weighs less than the ISF engine
  • Hence ISF Engine = Boat Anchor
All these issues would be moot if Lexus was actually proud of the ISF engine and published the exact specs. It is like the drunken brother than nobody talks about.

Have fun in your souped up Camry

I would be happy to school you in boolean logic by PM.

Feel free to continue this thread on M3 pricing by discussing ISF boat anchors.
Nice. I hope you aren't an engineer, or any other occupation that requires logic.
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      01-16-2008, 10:35 PM   #75
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Nice. I hope you aren't an engineer, or any other occupation that requires logic.

How did you know? I designed the ISF, drunk.
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      01-17-2008, 08:13 AM   #76
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I'm just going to repost my response to you Tbone.

Riiiight. And we where discussing the weight of the ISF engine vs IS350 engine. I thought we where discussing how you think that the ISF's engine is weak, not advance, and non-stellar. And you still have not proven that. Do you have the capacity to understand this or you just like to change the subject because you don't really have any answers. C'mon Tbone, keep up with me here.

Quote:
Feel free to continue this thread on M3 pricing by discussing ISF boat anchors.
BTW, what's this all about Tbone, first you accused me of spamming now this. Are you asking for help from Admins or Mods. Remember, you're the one who started trolling, not me. So stop whining. If you want you can Just ask me to stop and i will Tbone. Oh and BTW, that ISF Pricing thread is posted in M3 vs. forum, nice try.
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      01-17-2008, 10:44 AM   #77
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Riiiight. And we where discussing the weight of the ISF engine vs IS350 engine. I thought we where discussing how you think that the ISF's engine is weak, not advance, and non-stellar. And you still have not proven that. Do you have the capacity to understand this or you just like to change the subject because you don't really have any answers. C'mon Tbone, keep up with me here.



BTW, what's this all about Tbone, first you accused me of spamming now this. Are you asking for help from Admins or Mods. Remember, you're the one who started trolling, not me. So stop whining. If you want you can Just ask me to stop and i will Tbone. Oh and BTW, that ISF Pricing thread is posted in M3 vs. forum, nice try.

You really want an internet victory don't you.

I wouldn't dream of asking the admins for help. Fact is ISF has a boat anchor for an engine. Just accept it and life will be better for you and you can take pride in driving your RWD Camry.
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      01-17-2008, 11:12 AM   #78
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^^ Still trolling. Very good boy Tbone, now sit Tbone, sit. Good boy.
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      01-17-2008, 11:23 AM   #79
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^^ Still trolling. Very good boy Tbone, now sit Tbone, sit. Good boy.

Maybe one day you will get a concession from me.... Maybe one day that I will say that the ISF is a great car...... But not today.

Don't you have to go shopping for a wing for your rice rocket?

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      01-17-2008, 11:33 AM   #80
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^^^ Still trolling. Keep it up Tbone, you're doing really good, i'm shocked how fast i was able to train you.
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      01-17-2008, 12:11 PM   #81
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^^^ Still trolling. Keep it up Tbone, you're doing really good, i'm shocked how fast i was able to train you.
Train me? I own you.

Here is the ISF concept car that didn't make it into production. It is disguised as a Nissan..... But don't let that fool you.

TRD is coming out with a fresh new set of decals and stickers which will be good for 5hp+ per decal / sticker.

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      01-17-2008, 12:29 PM   #82
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[*]The ISF also added more weight upfront and changed the static weight distribution in the wrong way
Does this sound like any BMW we might know, oh yeah...........the M6 and it's weight balance is even worse than the IS-F so in theory T-Bone you should love this car because it's handling characteristics are spot on to what you are use to.
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      01-17-2008, 12:42 PM   #83
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Does this sound like any BMW we might know, oh yeah...........the M6 and it's weight balance is even worse than the IS-F so in theory T-Bone you should love this car because it's handling characteristics are spot on to what you are use to.

Ah our resident Audi expert....

Just some data for you. The M6 has a 54 / 46 static weight distribution like the ISF. I have no issues with the M6 being described as boat anchor (A boat anchor that out accelerates Gallardos BTW).

But the real news is the RS4 weight distribution of 58 F / 42 R.
http://autos.yahoo.com/audi_rs4_sedan-specs/?p=ext

I have an early concept drawing of the RS4 for you.... Oddly enough the concept vehicle and production car were made of the same material, pig-iron.
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      01-17-2008, 01:11 PM   #84
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Wow! Posting pics now Tbone, you're seriously desperate. Actually Tbone, i own you. Because you still keep trolling every time i command you to. Go ahead Tbone, be a good boy and keep trolling.
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      01-17-2008, 01:40 PM   #85
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Wow! Posting pics now Tbone, you're seriously desperate. Actually Tbone, i own you. Because you still keep trolling every time i command you to. Go ahead Tbone, be a good boy and keep trolling.

I realize that delusion is a symptom of many Lexus owners so clearly I don't blame you for it. Lexus owners often believe they have better cars that say BMW.

Let's just say that BMW owns Lexus and you are my pet rock. When you get a real car, you will be elevated to the status of my pet dog.
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      01-17-2008, 02:02 PM   #86
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^^^ See, i knew you'd obey me. Very good boy Tbone. Keep trolling.
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      01-17-2008, 02:11 PM   #87
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You've failed to realize that i will not stoop down to your level and start bashing BMW. Because i do like BMW's and planning to own one in the future. Unlike you, who just like to bash other brands for no reason other than to bash. It's people like you that give's BMW owners a bad reputation. But if that's what makes you happy, then so be it. You are a perfect example of a bad fanboy and a badge whore. BTW, be a good boy and keep trolling.

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      01-17-2008, 02:18 PM   #88
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Wait a second, i can't believe you just dissed the RS4. The car that set the new standards on that segment. You are unbelievable, but i should'nt be surprised. Let's just wait and see when the new RS4 comes out and smoke all of the competition. Keep trolling Tbone, listen to your master.
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