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View Poll Results: What influenced BMW USA's M3 pricing the most?
KILL Lexus IS-F and AMG C63 and keep the segment to themselves 39 25.32%
BMW 335i was such a good car, the M3 couldn't command a bigger premium 18 11.69%
US Economy slowing down in 2008 27 17.53%
To hit the unit goal of 100,000 units, need to price the car to hit these volumes 70 45.45%
Voters: 154. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-16-2008, 01:48 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
hell yeah that thing is heavy, ugly, and overpriced.
Dude, the M6 is not overpriced at almost $100k, yes it is heavy at almost 4000lbs but it's still fast and handles very well. It is not ugly either, IMO. But that's subjective, beauty is in they eye of the beholder.
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      01-16-2008, 02:33 PM   #46
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Dude, the M6 is not overpriced at almost $100k, yes it is heavy at almost 4000lbs but it's still fast and handles very well. It is not ugly either, IMO. But that's subjective, beauty is in they eye of the beholder.
we all have our opinions. I think its ugly. I think its heavy. and the reason I don't own one is because i think it is overpriced. You get faster/cooler/more functional with the m3.

Who in their right mind would pay 100,000 for a car. Do you know how many homeless people you could house for a year with that much money? I'm having a hard time justifying buying an M3 sedan as it is. Granted I guess you could also look at it as... im paying more taxes, driving the economy etc. but still that is 10 civics as opposed to the measley 5 civics I could buy with the m3.
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      01-16-2008, 02:41 PM   #47
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      01-16-2008, 02:49 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
we all have our opinions. I think its ugly. I think its heavy. and the reason I don't own one is because i think it is overpriced. You get faster/cooler/more functional with the m3.

Who in their right mind would pay 100,000 for a car. Do you know how many homeless people you could house for a year with that much money? I'm having a hard time justifying buying an M3 sedan as it is. Granted I guess you could also look at it as... im paying more taxes, driving the economy etc. but still that is 10 civics as opposed to the measley 5 civics I could buy with the m3.
I hear you bro. I'm justifying the $100k price is not overpriced only because if you compare it to the cars in that segment, its a very good value. Maserati Granturismo 400hp, CLK550 385hp, Jaguar XJR 420hp are all within the same price range. The only one that's a better performer but a lot more money is the CLK Black Series at $130k. Again, look wise is very subjective and it's a matter of opinion. I do respect yours.
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      01-16-2008, 03:30 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by burrito007 View Post
we all have our opinions. I think its ugly. I think its heavy. and the reason I don't own one is because i think it is overpriced. You get faster/cooler/more functional with the m3.

Who in their right mind would pay 100,000 for a car. Do you know how many homeless people you could house for a year with that much money? I'm having a hard time justifying buying an M3 sedan as it is. Granted I guess you could also look at it as... im paying more taxes, driving the economy etc. but still that is 10 civics as opposed to the measley 5 civics I could buy with the m3.

Spoken like a true socialist. Go Hillary.

gbb357, don't worry, I haven't had too much time today, I will get around to a response
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      01-16-2008, 04:30 PM   #50
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Spoken like a true socialist. Go Hillary.

gbb357, don't worry, I haven't had too much time today, I will get around to a response
You just like to criticize everyone's opinion but your own don't you. I think burrito007 has a very valid point, i don't see it as being a socialist just because he has conscience. But anyway, waiting for your respond, but in the mean time, here's some food for thought. Notice no gas-guzzler tax. It's also going to be featured in Popular Mechanics as their "Tech Breakout Car" in Jan. issue.

Feature
417 HP................................Yes
371 TQ................................Yes
2 Stage Intake System............Yes
Oil Coolers.............................Yes
Transmission Coolers................Yes
High-Flow Oil Pump..................Yes
8-Speed Transmission..............Yes
Brembo Brakes........................Yes
BBS Rims................................Yes
Sport Tuned Suspension...........Yes
Gas Guzzler Tax.......................No
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      01-16-2008, 04:35 PM   #51
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You just like to criticize everyone's opinion but your own don't you. I think burrito007 has a very valid point, i don't see it as being a socialist just because he has conscience. But anyway, waiting for your respond, but in the mean time, here's some food for thought. Notice no gas-guzzler tax. It's also going to be featured in Popular Mechanics as their "Tech Breakout Car" in Jan. issue.

Feature
417 HP................................Yes
371 TQ................................Yes
2 Stage Intake System............Yes
Oil Coolers.............................Yes
Transmission Coolers................Yes
High-Flow Oil Pump..................Yes
8-Speed Transmission..............Yes
Brembo Brakes........................Yes
BBS Rims................................Yes
Sport Tuned Suspension...........Yes
Gas Guzzler Tax.......................No

No worries.... I am not criticizing Burrito's observation.... I am from Kanada and we have similar socialist views. At least we are not as bad as Australia where they have a Luxury tax (I mean jealousy tax).

Who cares about fuel economy? Read the threads on the M-DCT. We are having a debate where I am espousing the view that BMW made the wrong trade off for fuel economy vs. performance.
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      01-16-2008, 04:39 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
I hear you bro. I'm justifying the $100k price is not overpriced only because if you compare it to the cars in that segment, its a very good value. Maserati Granturismo 400hp, CLK550 385hp, Jaguar XJR 420hp are all within the same price range. The only one that's a better performer but a lot more money is the CLK Black Series at $130k. Again, look wise is very subjective and it's a matter of opinion. I do respect yours.
heh i think they're ALL overpriced =P

thats why i dont drive them.
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      01-16-2008, 04:43 PM   #53
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No worries.... I am not criticizing Burrito's observation.... I am from Kanada and we have similar socialist views. At least we are not as bad as Australia where they have a Luxury tax (I mean jealousy tax).

Who cares about fuel economy? Read the threads on the M-DCT. We are having a debate where I am espousing the view that BMW made the wrong trade off for fuel economy vs. performance.
Obviously you don't care, you don't even care about the $9,000 difference, let alone the $1,900 you're going to pay for GGT. What you and i care for is not the point or the issue. Our whole dispute is base on your "opinion" not facts, about the ISF engine being non-stellar and not tecnologically advance. I'm just giving you facts that it is and i'm still waiting for you to prove me that it isn't. Of course you're not going to, and just continue to bash away with no facts and say how heavy it is without providing any specs with comparison. BUt that's okay, that's why it's called trolling.

Last edited by gbb357; 01-16-2008 at 06:21 PM.
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      01-16-2008, 06:08 PM   #54
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I am having a little fun on an ISF thread on this board.

What is the value statement for the ISF over the M3?

Power? Nope
Handling? Nope
Engineering? Nope
Brand Cache? Nope

BMW just relegated the ISF into an also-ran with pricing today.

Better luck next cycle Lexus!!!


Was IS-F pricing released? What was it?

EDIT: Disregard...I found it.
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      01-16-2008, 06:40 PM   #55
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BTW Tbone, the reason i brought up the GGT is to point out to you that the engine on the ISF is pretty advance to be able to produced the performance it can and at the same time give decent gas mileage of 23+mpg average. Not to mention these features as well. Please don't make this a M3 vs ISF discussion. If your'e going to compare them that's fine, but leave it at that.

2 Stage Intake System............Yes
Oil Coolers.............................Yes
Transmission Coolers................Yes
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      01-16-2008, 07:45 PM   #56
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Obviously you don't care, you don't even care about the $9,000 difference, let alone the $1,900 you're going to pay for GGT. What you and i care for is not the point or the issue. Our whole dispute is base on your "opinion" not facts, about the ISF engine being non-stellar and not tecnologically advance. I'm just giving you facts that it is and i'm still waiting for you to prove me that it isn't. Of course you're not going to, and just continue to bash away with no facts and say how heavy it is without providing any specs with comparison. BUt that's okay, that's why it's called trolling.
If you insist..... just keep up your whining and your love of the ISF junk.

IS350 - 3527 pounds curb weight - 52 / 48 : F / R weight distribution
Source: http://autos.yahoo.com/lexus_is_350/

ISF - 3825 pounds curb weight - 54 / 46 : F / R weight distribution
Source: Road and Track January 2008

So the BOAT ANCHOR of an engine + accessories added 300 pounds to the car and added more weight up front.

When a great car company like BMW went from the the S54 I6 engine, to the S65 V8, it actually REDUCED the weight of the engine and output more power. Also when a car company is proud of their engine, they release specs.....Apparently Toyota doesn't want too much focus on the LS460 / LS600 engine derivative....

When the engine awards come out, I am pretty sure the ISF engine won't be there. I am willing to bet the S85 V10 or the S65 V8 will win a few more awards this year. The LS7 is in there somewhere too BTW.

There is NOTHING special about the ISF engine, it is just a spare part from Toyota's inventory. Hey let's go attack BMW's M3 with spare parts! Maybe we will get lucky like the Prius.

There are your facts. Enjoy. Once the ISF engine releases the weight, I will be sure to find this thread an post it.
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Last edited by T Bone; 01-16-2008 at 08:07 PM.
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      01-16-2008, 07:55 PM   #57
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Quote:
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....the ISF engine...is just a spare part from Toyota's inventory.

Enjoy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
When the engine awards come out, I am pretty sure the ISF engine won't be there.
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      01-16-2008, 08:14 PM   #58
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After all that time you made me wait the best answer you can come up with is "Lexus sucks". You just prove that the engine is heavy? BTW, those 300lbs is not all from the engine, don't forget the ugly ass hood and the exhaust system as well. When i asked for specs, i mean come up with an actual spec on how heavy the engine is and the engine of a competition, does'nt matter which one pick any of them. That does'nt prove that it's not technologically advance either. I just showed to you that despite it's weight and bigger displacement, it's advanced enough to avoid the gas guzzler tax and deliver the same performance as the competition. You really have a serious comprehension problem. So having a heavy engine means it's not technologically advanced, it's weak, and it's non-stellar. I guess you did'nt bother reading my post. I'll post it again for you buddy.

It's also going to be featured in Popular Mechanics as their "Tech Breakout Car" in Jan. issue.

Feature
417 HP................................Yes
371 TQ................................Yes
2 Stage Intake System............Yes
Oil Coolers.............................Yes
Transmission Coolers................Yes
High-Flow Oil Pump..................Yes
8-Speed Transmission..............Yes
Brembo Brakes........................Yes
BBS Rims................................Yes
Sport Tuned Suspension...........Yes
Gas Guzzler Tax.......................No


BTW, you still have'nt answered this post either. C'mon, stop avoiding it and come up with some explanation. I know you're just going to say "i don't care". Don't be scared.

Quote:
You still have'nt explain yourself with your logic that applies to the Aston Martins engines. I'm really interested how you can explain that logic of yours in regards to Aston Martins engines that are borrowed engines from Ford and they are two 3.0 liter V6 engines mated together. And you consider them weak and non-stellar.
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      01-16-2008, 08:30 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Who cares about fuel economy?
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Engines that I like include the LSx for the Z06 vettes.... Big displacement but packaging and fuel efficiency is great.
Riiiight.
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      01-16-2008, 08:32 PM   #60
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^^ Contradiction at it's finest. Brought to you by TBone.
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      01-16-2008, 08:35 PM   #61
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After all that time you made me wait the best answer you can come up with is "Lexus sucks". You just prove that the engine is heavy? BTW, those 300lbs is not all from the engine, don't forget the ugly ass hood and the exhaust system as well. When i asked for specs, i mean come up with an actual spec on how heavy the engine is and the engine of a competition, does'nt matter which one pick any of them. That does'nt prove that it's not technologically advance either. I just showed to you that despite it's weight and bigger displacement, it's advanced enough to avoid the gas guzzler tax and deliver the same performance as the competition. You really have a serious comprehension problem. So having a heavy engine means it's not technologically advanced, it's weak, and it's non-stellar. I guess you did'nt bother reading my post. I'll post it again for you buddy.

It's also going to be featured in Popular Mechanics as their "Tech Breakout Car" in Jan. issue.

Feature
417 HP................................Yes
371 TQ................................Yes
2 Stage Intake System............Yes
Oil Coolers.............................Yes
Transmission Coolers................Yes
High-Flow Oil Pump..................Yes
8-Speed Transmission..............Yes
Brembo Brakes........................Yes
BBS Rims................................Yes
Sport Tuned Suspension...........Yes
Gas Guzzler Tax.......................No

BTW, you still have'nt answered this post either. C'mon, stop avoiding it and come up with some explanation. I know you're just going to say "i don't care". Don't be scared.

Why don't you enlighten us with ISF engine specs instead of the checklist that you keep putting up? I just gave you data that the boat anchor weighs the front end down and the car is 300 pounds more than the IS350.

Is the full 300 pounds attributable to the engine? No... But probably 100-150 pounds. Again, BMW reduced weight and added power going from an I6 to a V8. These are the facts.

Yes, a high-flow oil pump makes the ISF engine HAWT. Wow, transmission coolers, Toyota really pulled a fast one on BMW.

You come and spam a BMW board

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...91&postcount=1

and you expected a friendly response?

Lexus will be lucky to sell the 3000 they have slated for production.



On the AM engines....you are right, I don't care, I haven't read up on them because it is of no interest to me like the Prius. Keep asking all you want, it will be the same answer.
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      01-16-2008, 08:42 PM   #62
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Riiiight.

Read the whole thread, I was describing all the characteristics of the LS7 and fuel economy is good....but it would not influence my buying decision.

gbb357 insists that I am self-contradicting..... In my private world, some factors how I evaluate an engine:
  • Power
  • Powerband
  • Technology
  • Engine accessories (i.e. electric water pump)
  • Packaging / weight
  • Fuel economy
  • Displacement
ISF delivers on POWER only in my private world. The LS7 delivers on everything except displacement, which is why I like it. The S85 delivers everything except fuel economy?

Clear as mud?
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      01-16-2008, 08:43 PM   #63
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So basically you don't have an answer and you where just trolling and it back fired. Got it, nice way to raise the white flag. Just in case you missed this post because you have a habit of doing that in purpose, let me post it again. Another beautiful example of your classic contradiction.


Quote:
:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Who cares about fuel economy?

Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Engines that I like include the LSx for the Z06 vettes.... Big displacement but packaging and fuel efficiency is great.
BTW, i don't have any specs on the engines weight, you're the one that brought it up, so prove it and be done with it. And you still refuse to recognize the fact that it's advanced enough to avoid the gas guzzler tax unlike the competition.
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      01-16-2008, 08:50 PM   #64
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BTW, what you call spamming, in the internet world, it's called starting a thread. In Lexus forums, i post about BMW's all the time and give them high praises. As a matter of fact i'm one of the few that defends them all the time from haters and ignorants like you. I don't expect anything, but i surely don't expect idiots like you trolling just because another member just happen to like another brand besides BMW. You do realize that i'm not the only one here that likes other brands besides BMW and drives other cars besides BMW. If you did'nt started trolling to begin with, this would've never happened. But then again, this is the internet.
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      01-16-2008, 08:54 PM   #65
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So basically you don't have an answer and you where just trolling and it back fired. Got it, nice way to raise the white flag. Just in case you missed this post because you have a habit of doing that in purpose, let me post it again. Another beautiful example of your classic contradiction.




BTW, i don't have any specs on the engines weight, you're the one that brought it up, so prove it and be done with it. And you still refuse to recognize the fact that it's advanced enough to avoid the gas guzzler tax unlike the competition.

No, with the available data, you must infer the engine's weight (which assumes a measure of intelligence). 300 pound weight gain from IS350 to ISF. Engine alone probably weighs 100-150 more.

Benchmark is BMW going from I6 to V8, delivering more power at less weight. Lexus fails to make the mark.

I just don't think you get it or you choose to obfuscate the issue by redirection.

On the Gas Guzzler tax, it is more attribuate to the 8speed slushbox than anything else.

Feel free to keep spamming here. Absorb the data and understand that Lexus makes spare parts boat anchors to compete against thorougbreds..... Better luck next time Lexus.....come again with a real car.
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      01-16-2008, 09:02 PM   #66
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No, with the available data, you must infer the engine's weight (which assumes a measure of intelligence). 300 pound weight gain from IS350 to ISF. Engine alone probably weighs 100-150 more.

Benchmark is BMW going from I6 to V8, delivering more power at less weight. Lexus fails to make the mark.

I just don't think you get it or you choose to obfuscate the issue by redirection.

On the Gas Guzzler tax, it is more attribuate to the 8speed slushbox than anything else.

Feel free to keep spamming here. Absorb the data and understand that Lexus makes spare parts boat anchors to compete against thorougbreds..... Better luck next time Lexus.....come again with a real car.
What exactly don't i get? THis whole discussion started with you trolling. I never disputed about BMW's place. THat's not what we're talking about. If anything i have repeatedly said that BMW is way ahead of the game and everyone is playing catch up and also said that in the handling category they dominate. You still have not prove anything about the ISF's engine being weak, not advance, and non-stellar. On the spamming issue, go see post #64.
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