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      01-12-2008, 09:31 AM   #67
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I believe most of your taxes go to old people and poor people and disabled people. The country just goes into debt for wars.
Bingo. Very close to being right. If you remember there was a presidential commision in the 80's called the grace commission. They found that none of our tax dollars paid for anything, zero. It all went to interest on the national debt. Early last year interest on the national debt was over 40 million dollars per hour (much worse now). Most people know about the national debt which is over 9.2 trillion dollars (9 million, million dollars), but don't know that total federal debt is now at 53 trillion dollars. You add in State, Local, and Individual debt and we recently just breached 100 trillion dollars of debt as a country.

Here's a one page summary of the federal debt that I think every american should read because eventually this debt will impact our standard of living, our children's, and grand childrens standard of living in a big way: http://www.financialsense.com/editor...2008/0109.html

Our taxes do not pay for the war at all. Our government borrows from the Federal Reserve and places like China (at interest).

Can't wait to see m3's on the road here.
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      01-12-2008, 09:50 AM   #68
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The military discount is a part of the benefits for serving overseas. Just like free health care.
We don't feel entitled to it, its a part of the pay/benefit package.
I don't hear anyone else complaining about someone else's salary.
No one is being forced to "subsidize" us, that is BMW's policy... complain to them. Or don't buy their products in protest.
Stop your griping. If you want the discount... go to your recruiter and ask for a tour in the sand.

Moderator , please lock this tread. It is way off topic... and I am really starting to get irked at the insulting comments.
Exactly.

What is really imbecile of the comments about all these derogatory BMW Military Sales and the members that enjoy those discounts is that, there is also Diplomat sales, Employee Discounts (E-Plan), Supplier discounts (S-Plan), European Delivery Discounts from not only BMW but from most auto manufactures out there.

Are they also "subsidized" by taxes? Are the beneficiaries of those discounts "better" people than those that don't get discounts? I must be damned, according to those derogatory comments, because not only I enjoyed the Military Sales discount, but also the European Delivery discount in BMW's and the S-Plan with Volkswagen. I must be "better" than you all, and probably caused a meltdown in the IRS accounts...

What really gets me is that these comments are posted in a forum where several people are ordering M3 without knowing the price, and they are celebrated and congratulated for that. Fine, that's great... for them. However, when a military member talks about Military Sales, the real misery inside some of the same people start showing up in their comments: damn, they are going to get an M3 discounted!!!! That cannot be!!!!!!!!

Miserable, isn't it?
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      01-12-2008, 09:56 AM   #69
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My Apologies

I want to apologize for "hijacking" this thread. It really pulled away from the main topic that was created for discussion.

I promise I will not do that again.

We shall see on Monday!
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      01-12-2008, 10:00 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkstarZero View Post
The country has always been in debt except for that one time with Clinton but that was the exact time the country went into a recession too... i dont know if anyone noticed that? government surplus equaled recession. not that it was to blame, but it did happen at the same time. and you can't blame that on bush cause he wasn't in office until 6 months after the country was up to its neck in a recession.
This is so but as an economist I can't let this one go.

Mate, this is - sorry. The U.S. was in recession under Bush I (90 - 91) which was also the last time we had a housing recession (& S&L crisis). The U.S. was NEVER in recession under Clinton - in fact that period, 92 -00, saw the fastest economic growth in the last 20 years (real GDP a.r., Dept. of Commerce data, not Clintons' flunkies' data) - see graph below, the dark blue bars are real economic growth, the pale blue vertical bars are NBER delineated recessions.

You're right that Bush II can't be blamed for the brief recession of '01 - that was about the dramatic collapse in earnings and negative wealth effect post the tech bubble. It's going to be a close call if we don't have a recession now...

Back to price speculation ...

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      01-12-2008, 10:29 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by aerisolphaln View Post
I have read mention of "fighting for my freedom" that I "take for granted" but, isn't the first freedom mentioned in the constitutional amendments the freedom of speech? Now, is that only the freedom to blindly praise those in the military? I guess it seems to me that those in the military are fighting for my freedom to speak my mind and share my opinions, even if I am derogatory and dissenting with regards to those in the military and their operations. No? I've got my freedoms mixed up? Please enlighten me.
Sorry dude but the only freedom you exercised in this case was your freedom to make an ass out of yourself...which is your right.
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      01-12-2008, 10:32 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by aerisolphaln View Post
You're absolutely right - and I'm proud of who I am. I stand by everything I've said in this thread. And what makes this country great is that I have the freedom to my opinions and the freedom to voice those opinions, even when my sentiments aren't popular. Isn't that what all of you military folks were and are fighting for?
Yes, now STFU.
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      01-12-2008, 10:38 AM   #73
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Just watching CNN today about what an epidemic of homeless vets there is ... 'nuff said.
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      01-12-2008, 10:48 AM   #74
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how did my thread go so wrong?????????
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      01-12-2008, 10:51 AM   #75
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this has definitely turned into one of the more interesting (and enlightening) threads on this board over the past year. so if monday is indeed the day, i wonder when they will release it...AM or PM? does anyone know if BMW is scheduled to talk on monday or will they just simply display cars there and never hold a press conference, etc?
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      01-12-2008, 11:28 AM   #76
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I sure would like to celebrate the fact that we might have pricing in 2 days...but somehow I feel a big let down coming!
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      01-12-2008, 12:21 PM   #77
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Although I have vehemently disagreed with aerisolphaln in the past, and am not so fond of his arrogance, I side with him on Military automobile discounts. First, today there is simply no logical connection between the two. You Military guys make it sound like some god given right to pay less for some luxury cars then us non-military folks. Next, last I checked, there was not a draft. Why should a voluntary balance between risk and reward entitle one to less expensive cars? In the end the cost must be borne by other buyers and it amounts to an unfair tax and entitlement program. I know you guys and your families have hard jobs and hard lives. I can appreciate that but you have some great benefits as well. Why is not pride of doing a tough job and the respect, admiration and thanks from your supporters enough? Do you really think cheap BMWs are the required appreciation? Perhaps I might also be grilled on if I have ever served and the answer is no. But would I feel entitled to less expensive luxury cars if I was serving? No I wouldn't. Sure I'd appreciate it but I would not feel entitled to it.


Would your life be easier or filled with more money if the Military Sales program didn't exist?

It has already been said that the discounts given do not affect our prices.

Everyone needs to show some tolerance for a job they would not do.
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      01-12-2008, 02:25 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epacy View Post


Would your life be easier or filled with more money if the Military Sales program didn't exist?

It has already been said that the discounts given do not affect our prices.

Everyone needs to show some tolerance for a job they would not do.
As a military guy...I am offended in a way by those of you who feel/suggest that the military sales program is some sort of entitilement program. It is not and in now way do we feel that our jobs entitle us to "cheaper" luxury vehicles. At least in my contacts and experience that is the case. While such programs are appreciated; they are not viewed as any type of right.

There are always those who for whatever reason will get discounts on things such things which below what the average customer will pay whether thru military sales, diplomatic sales, friend of the owner sales, etc..

So whether a few hundred folks pay less than MSRP for their as previously said really doesn't mean anything to overall MSRP prices, release dates, etc, etc....U guys with a problem with it should get over that aspect of it I'd guess.

As for the additional ah "comments" yes there is no draft and all that have served and continue to serve do so voluntarily. No one is holding a gun to our head to make us do so. However if someone decides to offer us (who serve) as discount off the price of a car due to that fact; then I applaude it and aippreciate the opportunity to partake in it if so desired.

Remember that the average military member makes less than his civilian counterpart in the economy and as of lately suffers multiple disruptions in his life and that of his family's all for the sake of serving/protecting something higher than themselves. I fand my significant other for one have been "deployed" overseas at least 20 out of 36 months without family and spouse since 2003 (yes I signed the paper)...so if BMW wants to allow me to buy a car at some % off the MSRP for my troubles with my own meager military salary....then all I can say is "thank you, very much and I'll take mine in Jerez black."

Something I think some folks in the US whom this current conflict doesn't affect on a daily or regular basis should also learn to say..."thanks to the troops" not berating them for the discount on their cars.
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      01-12-2008, 02:44 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerisolphaln View Post
Absolutely correct - never served, never will.
That's great and that's your choice and right. Also the right to say what you feel and believe; I believe they call it freedom of speech and it is granted bytthe 1st ammendment.

But try not to totally offend those who protect your right to do so with your comments. My suggestion for those of you pissed or upset at having to pay above MSRP's for a $60,000 plus luxury sport coupe and/or who have a problem with someone getting a discount off theirs due to what they feel may be a lesser job is to go online to www.army.com or www.usmc.com or whichever branch you so choose and ask for the 1st boot camp session and 1st plane to Afghanistan or Iraq soonest possible. I've been there and they got plenty of need and room for you guys/gals and then you two can have your discounted M3 if it means that much to you that you fairly get what others are also getting as far as pricing goes.
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      01-12-2008, 04:15 PM   #80
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Remember that the average military member makes less than his civilian counterpart in the economy and as of lately suffers multiple disruptions in his life and that of his family's all for the sake of serving/protecting something higher than themselves.
I'm not attacking the military sales' program (though I'd be curious to know about its history, and does it apply, for e.g. to Aussies / Canucks etc also serving?)

But what I don't buy is the argument about "average military member makes less than his civilian counterpart". My wife is a professor with 13 years of education (ie highly trained professional) and she makes less than the guy who runs my performance reports who's 30 years' old. Professors / teachers, many professions make less than someone in industry, and they also serve the community in educating the population, for e.g. They don't benefit from any discounts. I have a mate who is at Ft Riley, KS, and he makes more than my wife and has never been deployed 'in country'.

Again: I state, I am NOT attacking the MIL sales' program. Merely rebutting this "lower relative income = right to discount" argument.
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Last edited by Voltigeur; 01-12-2008 at 11:08 PM. Reason: clarification
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      01-12-2008, 04:27 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
I'm not going to attack the military sales' program (though I'd be curious to know about its history, and does it apply, for e.g. to Aussies / Canucks etc also serving?)

But what I don't buy is the argument about "average military member makes less than his civilian counterpart". My wife is a professor with 13 years of education (ie highly trained professional) and she makes less than the guy who runs my performance reports who's 30 years' old. Professors / teachers, many professions make less than someone in industry, and they also serve the community in educating the population. They don't benefit from any discounts. I have a mate who is at Ft Riley, KS, and he makes more than my wife and has never been deployed 'in country'.

Again: I state, I am NOT attacking the MIL sales' program. Merely rebutting this "lower relative income = right to discount" argument.
Well, but that's not the fault of the men that serve in the forces. War is not they fault either. Each profession has it's pros and cons, and that's it. Specialy considering that mil sales doesn't affect the price you are paying.
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      01-12-2008, 04:34 PM   #82
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Jason already clarified how the discount is obtained; NOT through tax dollars or some other form of subsidy, but through the elimination of middlemen. So to all those who are saying Mil Sales results in the rest of us absorbing the cost of the discount and paying more somehow, I don't understand your reasoning as that doesn't seem to be the case.

Actually, I wish we all had the OPTION of by-passing the dealers, and buying cars directly from the manufacturer with some limited delivery charge (what has my dealer done for me really other than misinforming me until now?). In this day and age of information and communication technology, this efficiency should be introduced to our economies. But I believe there are laws against this--at least in the US--that need to be cleaned up because they belong to another era. For those of us who want to go through the dealers for whatever reason, paying extra for the dealer's service would still be an option.

Apart from that, I also don't agree with the lower income should get discounts point. I think government employees, who are paid lower relative to their counterparts in industry in general, should be paid higher and the discounts/perks should be dropped to make government operations more transparent, but of course, that is not easy to implement.
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      01-12-2008, 04:58 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
I'm not going to attack the military sales' program (though I'd be curious to know about its history, and does it apply, for e.g. to Aussies / Canucks etc also serving?)

But what I don't buy is the argument about "average military member makes less than his civilian counterpart". My wife is a professor with 13 years of education (ie highly trained professional) and she makes less than the guy who runs my performance reports who's 30 years' old. Professors / teachers, many professions make less than someone in industry, and they also serve the community in educating the population. They don't benefit from any discounts. I have a mate who is at Ft Riley, KS, and he makes more than my wife and has never been deployed 'in country'.

Again: I state, I am NOT attacking the MIL sales' program. Merely rebutting this "lower relative income = right to discount" argument.
BMW and I believe most other German car makers offer their programs to other countries servicemen as well. I know for a fact that UK military members and diplomats also qualify.

This program applies to servicemen serving across the globe. Not just those serving in the Middle East. As stated before, the program also includes diplomats and civilian conctractors.

Also, as stated earlier, the program simply cuts out the middle man allowing the cars to be sold just above invoice. BMW does not sacrifice any of its own profits for this program. I really dont understand how removing the program would change MSRP. Think about it this way, when you know the manager of a dealership and he offers you a car at MSRP because he is your buddy, does that have any effect on the car manufacturers profits? The answer is no, essentially the manager has sacrificed his profits to offer his buddy the car at invoice or at the dealer cost if you will.

Jason
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      01-12-2008, 05:02 PM   #84
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BMW and I believe most other German car makers offer their programs to other countries servicemen as well. I know for a fact that UK military members and diplomats also qualify.

This program applies to servicemen serving across the globe. Not just those serving in the Middle East. As stated before, the program also includes diplomats and civilian conctractors.

Also, as stated earlier, the program simply cuts out the middle man allowing the cars to be sold just above invoice. BMW does not sacrifice any of its own profits for this program. I really dont understand how removing the program would change MSRP. Think about it this way, when you know the manager of a dealership and he offers you a car at MSRP because he is your buddy, does that have any effect on the car manufacturers profits? The answer is no, essentially the manager has sacrificed his profits to offer his buddy the car at invoice or at the dealer cost if you will.

Jason
It seems people would rather whine and bitch than grasp this concept.
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      01-12-2008, 05:09 PM   #85
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Just to review

BMW sells their cars to dealers at Cost or an Invoice price. Lets say the new E92 M3 costs BMW $40K to build. The Dealerships then put in their orders for the car. The dealerships buy the car at cost for lets say $49K. Thus BMW makes $9K per car. Then the dealership(THE RETAILER) turns around and sells the the car for the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of lets say $57K. Thus the dealership makes $8K profit on each car sold.

Military Sales programs like Pentagon Car Sales still buy their BMW's at cost. In this example they are buying the E92 M3 for $49K. They then turn around and sell them at only 1% over invoice so lets round up and say $50K. Therefore the only group in this case making any kind of sacrifice is Pentagon Car Sales which makes about $500 profit per car sold. Probably enough to maintain a website and offer participating BMW reps a nice perk.

Hopefully this clears up the issue. I am making very big generalizations and understand there are other steps in the road here. But, I still dont see how companies like Pentagon Car Sales have any effect on the Invoice price of the car.

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      01-12-2008, 05:20 PM   #86
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Quote:
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BMW sells their cars to dealers at Cost or an Invoice price. Lets say the new E92 M3 costs BMW $40K to build. The Dealerships then put in their orders for the car. The dealerships buy the car at cost for lets say $49K. Thus BMW makes $9K per car. Then the dealership(THE RETAILER) turns around and sells the the car for the Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of lets say $57K. Thus the dealership makes $8K profit on each car sold.
The economics are clear: no change in BMW's overall margin. The diplomats' pricing: that's just about clever marketing on BMW's part
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      01-12-2008, 06:21 PM   #87
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Hopefully this clears up the issue.
Jason
You must be a nice person because, personally, I would say screw the miserables. There's nothing to clear here, IMO. You got people that don't want others to enjoy anything that they can't. And no matter how it is explained they are not going to be interested at all in anything unless we join their misery. So screw them.

Back to topic, please.
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      01-12-2008, 07:34 PM   #88
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I too think the military pricing is totally insane and stupid. These soldiers now expect deals on cars? so let me get this straight.... Soldiers get paid, free clothes, free food, college aid, and now they expect deals on cars??? I was watching the discovery channel and was shocked to find out they all drink BOTTLED water in Iraq. Are these soliders above canteens and tap water? I even saw a show were the soldiers were swimming in one of Sadamms pools like they were on vacation. I to say DEATH TO THE MILITARY DISCOUNT!!!

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<FREAKIN JOKING>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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