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      01-14-2008, 04:08 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Porsche owns VW/Audi, somehow I think this is more important to badge enthusiasts than the companies themselves. Also consider the Chairman of VW/Audi, Ferdinand Piech, is a grandson of the good Dr Porsche himself...
The two companies have had close ties for years but I wonder if the R8 was the final straw for Porsche, clearly it has been beating the normal 997s in almost every test. This might be a swan song for Audi as Porsche might never allow something like this again, which would be a shame as the R8 has proved to many that Audi are capable of producing real driver's cars and ones which stay true to their philosophy which is Quattro.

I just wished that Audi would adopt a more rear bias awd system in all of their cars but the chances of that are very slim as their current system is safer for normal drivers.
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      01-14-2008, 04:22 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
The two companies have had close ties for years but I wonder if the R8 was the final straw for Porsche, clearly it has been beating the normal 997s in almost every test. This might be a swan song for Audi as Porsche might never allow something like this again, which would be a shame as the R8 has proved to many that Audi are capable of producing real driver's cars and ones which stay true to their philosophy which is Quattro.

I just wished that Audi would adopt a more rear bias awd system in all of their cars but the chances of that are very slim as their current system is safer for normal drivers.
The R8 was developed with the technology they got from Lamborghini. So its hard to give full credit to Audi. Especially at that price.
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      01-14-2008, 04:47 PM   #135
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Yes, I was taking the weight of the 335i for the 300 lbs delta to the M6, not the M3...Personally I think ~300 lbs is a lot regardless of the power difference. Add "just another" 300 lbs and we are at the 09 CTS-V! 1 more thing, the M6 has forged wheels, anyone know what they weigh? I saved 44 lbs of unsprung weight simply by going to forged wheels on my 335i. They really transform the feel of the car.

But you want to know which statistic disappoints me most about the M6, bottom line? 3:10 in Car and Driver's Lightning Lap of VIR. The exact same as a stock 335i.

As for the GT-R, yes the M6 weighs just a bit more than the GT-R, however, the GT-R has a much more sophisticated AWD drivetrain. The GT-R absolutely spanks the M6 in performance terms, to the point if they were racing they would be in different classes. That being said the biggest read between the lines negative on the GT-R seems to be it's everyday, low speed smoothness.

As a road GT, fine, the M6 is a fine car no doubt even if it would not be my choice for $100K. But if we are talking road GT's ignoring the last 10th of performance concerns, another car I'd put in there with both cars (spitting the difference between the 5 and 6) would be the CLS63, just another 300 lbs

If I were out for outright performance, I would have bought a Z06. It will spank almost every production car in the world today. The MB Lead Sleds do well on the road but is lost on the track. The M5 / M6 is about balance. The M6 and M5 are excellent roadcars and they are adept on the track..... The M5 / M6 do well because it makes a perfect compromise between road and track.

And every car is a compromise, including the GT-R.

Out of curiousity, have you driven the M5 / M6 on the track?


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Originally Posted by footie View Post
It does make a world of difference and it has nothing to do with the overall weight of the cars. Most of that extra weight between the M6 and M3 has been placed over the front axle so instead of a light on it toes feel that the M3 is blessed with the M6 feels wooden in comparison.

I know we seem to be at loggerheads on the subject of the M6 but too much weight over the front is a very bad thing for any sportscar and especially for track work.

At least the M5 isn't trying to be something it is not, it's a comfortable big saloon with is pretty hand on the track for a big girl.

You want to talk about wooden? The only wooden cars on the market are GM's and Audis. Crap to drive. See the attachment for weight distribution. The M5 has better weight distribution than the M6 with a driver.....don't get lost in the numbers though, I have driven both on the track and the M6 doesn't understeer as much as the M5.....both can throttle steer nicely.

The M5 / M6 will take any Audi on a track save the R8. I can't wait to see the complete humilation of the RS6 by the existing M5 on the track.....

Stop reading rags and get on a track.....
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      01-14-2008, 06:06 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Out of curiousity, have you driven the M5 / M6 on the track?
Not on the track, no. I lapped an M5 in my 335i though, at GIR
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      01-14-2008, 06:19 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
You want to talk about wooden? The only wooden cars on the market are GM's and Audis. Crap to drive. See the attachment for weight distribution. The M5 has better weight distribution than the M6 with a driver.....don't get lost in the numbers though, I have driven both on the track and the M6 doesn't understeer as much as the M5.....both can throttle steer nicely.

The M5 / M6 will take any Audi on a track save the R8. I can't wait to see the complete humilation of the RS6 by the existing M5 on the track.....

Stop reading rags and get on a track.....
You insist in bringing Audi into the mix even when I leave it out. My comments on wooden were compared to the M3 and not any Audi, please try and get with the programme.

Maybe the M5 will beat the RS6 on the track but based on how the S6 compares to the M5 I very much doubt it.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...omparison_vrt/

This wasn't a glowing example of the M5's superiority against a car which has more weight, less power and isn't even the top of the range.

And when you consider the length of the straights on the ring it looks like the RS4 can out corner the big M6 as the two posted identical times and knowing how much distance the M6 can pull from a rolling start the RS4 must be lightening through the corner compared to the big bulky M6.

I don't know how good the new RS6 will be and unless Audi make a saloon version you boys in the States won't have to be too concerned about looking over your shoulder at the possibility that the beast might come roaring by. But if the estimates of it's real power are anything to go by I doubt even the M6 will be staying in front for long.
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      01-14-2008, 06:23 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by E90ice View Post
The R8 was developed with the technology they got from Lamborghini. So its hard to give full credit to Audi. Especially at that price.
Get your facts straight, Audi developed the Gallardo not the other way round, they built the chassis (in Germany), developed the engine, designed the suspension, the only thing they used was the awd system and gearbox and both of these they improved. Clearly your knowledge of other brands is quite limited, in fact that should include BMWs as well.
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      01-14-2008, 06:27 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
Not on the track, no. I lapped an M5 in my 335i though, at GIR

Driver or car?
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      01-14-2008, 06:30 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
You insist in bringing Audi into the mix even when I leave it out. My comments on wooden were compared to the M3 and not any Audi, please try and get with the programme.

Maybe the M5 will beat the RS6 on the track but based on how the S6 compares to the M5 I very much doubt it.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...omparison_vrt/

This wasn't a glowing example of the M5's superiority against a car which has more weight, less power and isn't even the top of the range.

And when you consider the length of the straights on the ring it looks like the RS4 can out corner the big M6 as the two posted identical times and knowing how much distance the M6 can pull from a rolling start the RS4 must be lightening through the corner compared to the big bulky M6.

I don't know how good the new RS6 will be and unless Audi make a saloon version you boys in the States won't have to be too concerned about looking over your shoulder at the possibility that the beast might come roaring by. But if the estimates of it's real power are anything to go by I doubt even the M6 will be staying in front for long.

The M5 6MT is silly and I hate it. The tranny and engine aren't matched. Someone at BMW USA should get hung out to dry for that one.

I have a bet with a M5board member (not for money but for humilation), that the existing M5 will be faster than the RS6 in Gustav's airfield runs. On track, it won't even be an issue. Would you like a non-monetary wager?
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      01-14-2008, 06:47 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
The M5 6MT is silly and I hate it. The tranny and engine aren't matched. Someone at BMW USA should get hung out to dry for that one.

I have a bet with a M5board member (not for money but for humilation), that the existing M5 will be faster than the RS6 in Gustav's airfield runs. On track, it won't even be an issue. Would you like a non-monetary wager?
Thats it! You probably won't hear from him again.
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      01-14-2008, 06:47 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
The M5 6MT is silly and I hate it. The tranny and engine aren't matched. Someone at BMW USA should get hung out to dry for that one.

I have a bet with a M5board member (not for money but for humilation), that the existing M5 will be faster than the RS6 in Gustav's airfield runs. On track, it won't even be an issue. Would you like a non-monetary wager?
I am not the kind of person who bets, so I decline. Thanks all the same.

But based on Power per tonne and Torque per tonne the RS6 should have it but the margin will be small. It's really down to the differences in gearbox choices instead of anything else and how much power the auto is taking from the Audi, though actual shift times should be pretty close between the two as the RS6 shifts in 80ms. But if it was based on a standing start instead of rolling then I would comfortably place my money on the RS6.

The problem with any test that is not conducted by Magazines is that you really don't know for sure that each of the cars are stock and you are going on someone word.
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      01-14-2008, 06:48 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
Get your facts straight, Audi developed the Gallardo not the other way round, they built the chassis (in Germany), developed the engine, designed the suspension, the only thing they used was the awd system and gearbox and both of these they improved. Clearly your knowledge of other brands is quite limited, in fact that should include BMWs as well.
What I do know is that you talk from your ass, without even driving any of these cars or have any track experience.

I also know that the S5/RS4 get spanked by 335/M3 for less money and better driving experience.
Thats enough for me, posser!
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      01-14-2008, 06:50 PM   #144
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I am not the kind of person who bets, so I decline. Thanks all the same.

But based on Power per tonne and Torque per tonne the RS6 should have it but the margin will be small. It's really down to the differences in gearbox choices instead of anything else and how much power the auto is taking from the Audi, though actual shift times should be pretty close between the two as the RS6 shifts in 80ms. But if it was based on a standing start instead of rolling then I would comfortably place my money on the RS6.

The problem with any test that is not conducted by Magazines is that you really don't know for sure that each of the cars are stock and you are going on someone word.

Sorry did you want to make a friendly wager?
  • How about if I win, you put a M6 badge on your S5 and take a couple of high rez photos and post?
  • If you win, I put a S5 badge on my M6 and take a couple of high rez photos and post?
You can't sit on the fence like you are and make sterile arguments. No money will ever trade hands so the Admins should be fine, it is about pride.

Yes or no?
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      01-14-2008, 06:52 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Sorry did you want to make a friendly wager?
  • How about if I win, you put a M6 badge on your S5 and take a couple of high rez photos and post?
  • If you win, I put a S5 badge on my M6 and take a couple of high rez photos and post?
You can't sit on the fence like you are and make sterile arguments. No money will ever trade hands so the Admins should be fine, it is about pride.

Yes or no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
I am not the kind of person who knows what they are talking about, so I decline. Thanks all the same.
There you have it!
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      01-14-2008, 07:03 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Sorry did you want to make a friendly wager?
  • How about if I win, you put a M6 badge on your S5 and take a couple of high rez photos and post?
  • If you win, I put a S5 badge on my M6 and take a couple of high rez photos and post?
You can't sit on the fence like you are and make sterile arguments. No money will ever trade hands so the Admins should be fine, it is about pride.

Yes or no?
I have a better idea, if the RS6 loses than I will never make a bad comment about the M6 and will go as far to say that I will not make a bad comment regarding yourself ever again, but I will expect the same in return, Audis are great and no abuse comments from you.

E90Rice doesn't matter as what he says is anyway.

Deal.
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      01-14-2008, 07:14 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I have a better idea, if the RS6 loses than I will never make a bad comment about the M6 and will go as far to say that I will not make a bad comment regarding yourself ever again, but I will expect the same in return, Audis are great and no abuse comments from you.

E90Rice doesn't matter as what he says is anyway.

Deal.

I understand, I wouldn't want to bet against ///M anyway. No matter, I will be sure to post the results in the summer.

Too bad you had to pass this offer up, I could have potentially attached a "S5" emblem on my M6. The "S5" badge would be have been treated to the fastest car than any Audi badge would have seen. It would have been a great ride the little badge because it can't get the satisfaction from its own car.

Sorry mate, I cannot promise not to disparage Audi.....even I have limits
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      01-14-2008, 07:16 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by footie View Post
I have a better idea, if the RS6 loses than I will never make a bad comment about the M6 and will go as far to say that I will not make a bad comment regarding yourself ever again, but I will expect the same in return, Audis are great and no abuse comments from you.

E90Rice doesn't matter as what he says is anyway.

Deal.
How about you just never come back on this forum again, FootSmell? Like I said, this is a 328/330/335 forum. Go tell the M3 guys, how great the Audis are. We all saw that in the Top Gear video.

Bye Bye!
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      01-15-2008, 02:23 AM   #149
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      01-15-2008, 03:15 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by E90ice View Post
How about you just never come back on this forum again, FootSmell? Like I said, this is a 328/330/335 forum. Go tell the M3 guys, how great the Audis are. We all saw that in the Top Gear video.

Bye Bye!
I service a purpose on this site, if I wasn't here then you will move your abuse to someone else and that wouldn't be fair now would it.
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      01-15-2008, 08:23 AM   #151
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Driver or car?
Driver, of course. The 335i can hold its own and probably even get a wave around with an M5 on a tight track like GIR given equal drivers, but no way could I lap one....
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      01-15-2008, 11:54 AM   #152
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Did someone really sit there and say that audi should learn something from bmw and porsche?

Let's take things a step further and say that perhaps Audi isn't into making performance cars as much as the Audi-haters make them out to be. They make balanced all-weather luxury cars & occasionally sporty all-weather luxury cars and they're damn good at it. I'm more offended that someone would put porsche and bmw in the same category than I would be if someone put bmw and audi in the same category.

At the end of the day, Audi makes a more capable performance car in the R8 than bmw has ever made outside of a limited production E46 M3 CSL. At the end of the day, the RS4 is still the fastest sedan that Audi or BMW has seen (the E90 M3 is not out yet). At the end of the day, why would VW make audi into a pure sports car brand when porsche is always looking over their shoulders and they own Bugatti and Lamborghini.

M5 vs. RS4: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585874a284a1

M6 vs. R8: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458d5e1096b36

When the RS4 came out it WAS faster around a track than the E46 M3, even with its "poor balance, pathetic audi engineering" or whatever else you want to call it.
RS4 vs. E46 M3: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585874a284a1

Even RS4 vs. E92 M3 isn't the trouncing you guys make it out to be: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585874a284a1

I'd say Audi is doing just fine.

Don't put a company who's primary competitors are Audi and Mercedes in the same category with a true sports car company such as porsche.

E92 M3 vs. 997 C2S: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458be6dc37c65
... and it's not like the 997 is new, and it's not like the C2S isn't known as every man's 911. There's a GT3 and a GT2 that BMW has no answer for, nor are they tied like VW/Audi to someone that does.

I don't really know where BMW fanatics got the idea that BMW made true sports cars, nor have I met a non-bmw fanatic that thought BMW made true sports cars. They make sporty luxury cars. M cars are sportiER luxury cars.
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      01-15-2008, 02:34 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
Did someone really sit there and say that audi should learn something from bmw and porsche?

Let's take things a step further and say that perhaps Audi isn't into making performance cars as much as the Audi-haters make them out to be. They make balanced all-weather luxury cars & occasionally sporty all-weather luxury cars and they're damn good at it. I'm more offended that someone would put porsche and bmw in the same category than I would be if someone put bmw and audi in the same category.

At the end of the day, Audi makes a more capable performance car in the R8 than bmw has ever made outside of a limited production E46 M3 CSL. At the end of the day, the RS4 is still the fastest sedan that Audi or BMW has seen (the E90 M3 is not out yet). At the end of the day, why would VW make audi into a pure sports car brand when porsche is always looking over their shoulders and they own Bugatti and Lamborghini.

M5 vs. RS4: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585874a284a1

M6 vs. R8: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458d5e1096b36

When the RS4 came out it WAS faster around a track than the E46 M3, even with its "poor balance, pathetic audi engineering" or whatever else you want to call it.
RS4 vs. E46 M3: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585874a284a1

Even RS4 vs. E92 M3 isn't the trouncing you guys make it out to be: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=4585874a284a1

I'd say Audi is doing just fine.

Don't put a company who's primary competitors are Audi and Mercedes in the same category with a true sports car company such as porsche.

E92 M3 vs. 997 C2S: http://www.fastestlaps.com/index.php...=458be6dc37c65
... and it's not like the 997 is new, and it's not like the C2S isn't known as every man's 911. There's a GT3 and a GT2 that BMW has no answer for, nor are they tied like VW/Audi to someone that does.

I don't really know where BMW fanatics got the idea that BMW made true sports cars, nor have I met a non-bmw fanatic that thought BMW made true sports cars. They make sporty luxury cars. M cars are sportiER luxury cars.
How does the RS4 compare with the M5? The M5 is a bigger larger car and has different aerodynamics because of that. Lets keep the comparisons fair.
The M5 is RS6's competitor.

Nobody said that BMW made "true sports" car. But they drive better than any Audi, except maybe the R8.

Just curious....have you ever driven the RS4? Well, I have. I drove both R8 and RS4 on the track.
Not saying the RS4 is not a good car, because it is, in the wet ... but I wasn't too impressed with it. It was heavy and not too powerfull. Look at most 1/4 mile times. Lets not forget the "one-wheel-drive" 335 beat it on VIR track.
BMW definately makes better balanced cars, performance wise. A drivers car.
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      01-15-2008, 03:07 PM   #154
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How does the RS4 compare with the M5? The M5 is a bigger larger car and has different aerodynamics because of that. Lets keep the comparisons fair.
The M5 is RS6's competitor.

Nobody said that BMW made "true sports" car. But they drive better than any Audi, except maybe the R8.

Just curious....have you ever driven the RS4? Well, I have. I drove both R8 and RS4 on the track.
Not saying the RS4 is not a good car, because it is, in the wet ... but I wasn't too impressed with it. It was heavy and not too powerfull. Look at most 1/4 mile times. Lets not forget the "one-wheel-drive" 335 beat it on VIR track.
BMW definately makes better balanced cars, performance wise. A drivers car.


The RS4 is done like a turkey.....finito....kaput....along with the ISF. BMW killed them with pricing.

I find it amusing people compare the M6 to an R8. Try M6 to Bentley GT / SL63, CLxx for lap times, this is a closer comparison.
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