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      01-13-2008, 07:43 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
M5 = iDrive + bucking SMG, or manual + electronic restrictions. However, I'm hard pressed to come up with a better sedan, all around, street + track. However, I don't think it's $40K+ better than a tuned 335i.

M6 = Heavy, iDrive, styling (to many), no faster than a stock 335i around most tracks, too many other great cars in the 2 seater around $100K segment (i.e. 911, Blue Devil, GT-R, AM for style, etc..)
I believe BMW released a software update for that, and all new manual cars have the option to turn DSC off now.
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      01-13-2008, 07:48 PM   #112
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      01-13-2008, 07:51 PM   #113
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I'm saying for both Street and Track combined.

M5 = iDrive + bucking SMG, or manual + electronic restrictions. However, I'm hard pressed to come up with a better sedan, all around, street + track. I don't think it's $40K+ better than a tuned 335i, I'd much rather have a dedicated track car.

M6 = Heavy, iDrive, styling (to many), no faster than a stock 335i around most tracks, too many other great cars in the 2 seater around $100K segment (i.e. 911, Blue Devil, GT-R, AM for style, etc..)

The M3 is also overrated, imho, but can redeem itself somewhat if the price stays under $65K well equipped.

Well I am glad the M5 / M6 owners don't share your opinion..... The M5 is a great sedan and the M6 is a great GT. Both can have a little fun on the track.

BTW, the M6 doesn't weigh much more than the new M3 or even the 335i.
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      01-13-2008, 07:52 PM   #114
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I believe BMW released a software update for that, and all new manual cars have the option to turn DSC off now.
Good to know that has been addressed, however I think the real answer is for the 5 to get the M-DCT.
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      01-13-2008, 07:56 PM   #115
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BTW, the M6 doesn't weigh much more than the new M3 or even the 335i.
Over 300lbs more! And more than the AWD GT-R! And 5-600 lbs more than the 911.
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      01-13-2008, 08:05 PM   #116
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Over 300lbs more! And more than the AWD GT-R! And 5-600 lbs more than the 911.
M6: EU unladen weight = 1785 kg = 3927 pounds

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...gine_data.html

M3: EU unladen weight = 1655 kg = 3641 pounds
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ical_data.html


Weight difference = 286 pounds which is not much considering the power difference.

The M6 also weighs about the same as the new GT-R.
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      01-14-2008, 12:07 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
M6: EU unladen weight = 1785 kg = 3927 pounds

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...gine_data.html

M3: EU unladen weight = 1655 kg = 3641 pounds
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ical_data.html


Weight difference = 286 pounds which is not much considering the power difference.

The M6 also weighs about the same as the new GT-R.
286 lbs isn't much of a difference for acceleration between M6 and M3. It actually has no effect on the M6 due to the power difference.

However, ~300 lbs makes a HUGE difference when talking about corners.
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      01-14-2008, 12:11 AM   #118
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286 lbs isn't much of a difference for acceleration between M6 and M3. It actually has no effect on the M6 due to the power difference.

However, ~300 lbs makes a HUGE difference when talking about corners.

Sure but not that much on a base car that weighs 3600+ pounds. The point of comparing weights is that people believe the big BMWs are super heavy like the MBs or Audis....they are not and they do just fine on the track.
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      01-14-2008, 12:26 AM   #119
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Sure but not that much on a base car that weighs 3600+ pounds. The point of comparing weights is that people believe the big BMWs are super heavy like the MBs or Audis....they are not and they do just fine on the track.
That is true.
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      01-14-2008, 12:44 AM   #120
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SO it looks like the M5 takes the cake !! my decision is easy now of which car to buy .!!!!!!!

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      01-14-2008, 01:02 AM   #121
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Perfect! Good to hear.
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      01-14-2008, 07:19 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Well I am glad the M5 / M6 owners don't share your opinion..... The M5 is a great sedan and the M6 is a great GT. Both can have a little fun on the track.

BTW, the M6 doesn't weigh much more than the new M3 or even the 335i.
Maybe sdiver68 is meaning that because the M5/6 has so much more weight over the front axle that the car feels heavy, which it does compared to either the M3 or 335i. This will always be the problem with a big lump of an engine which isn't placed inside the front axle and before you say it, Audi also have this problem but awd does control it to a degree, maybe BMW should take a leaf out of Ferrari's book and mount the gearbox at the rear to help balance out the weight and shift the engine more to the rear.

I would agree that there is currently very little out there to compete with the M5 as an overall package though maybe the RS6 might just pip it on outright ability and performance.
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      01-14-2008, 07:37 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Sure but not that much on a base car that weighs 3600+ pounds. The point of comparing weights is that people believe the big BMWs are super heavy like the MBs or Audis....they are not and they do just fine on the track.
It does make a world of difference and it has nothing to do with the overall weight of the cars. Most of that extra weight between the M6 and M3 has been placed over the front axle so instead of a light on it toes feel that the M3 is blessed with the M6 feels wooden in comparison.

I know we seem to be at loggerheads on the subject of the M6 but too much weight over the front is a very bad thing for any sportscar and especially for track work.

At least the M5 isn't trying to be something it is not, it's a comfortable big saloon with is pretty hand on the track for a big girl.
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      01-14-2008, 08:27 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
M6: EU unladen weight = 1785 kg = 3927 pounds

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...gine_data.html

M3: EU unladen weight = 1655 kg = 3641 pounds
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ical_data.html


Weight difference = 286 pounds which is not much considering the power difference.

The M6 also weighs about the same as the new GT-R.
Yes, I was taking the weight of the 335i for the 300 lbs delta to the M6, not the M3...Personally I think ~300 lbs is a lot regardless of the power difference. Add "just another" 300 lbs and we are at the 09 CTS-V! 1 more thing, the M6 has forged wheels, anyone know what they weigh? I saved 44 lbs of unsprung weight simply by going to forged wheels on my 335i. They really transform the feel of the car.

But you want to know which statistic disappoints me most about the M6, bottom line? 3:10 in Car and Driver's Lightning Lap of VIR. The exact same as a stock 335i.

As for the GT-R, yes the M6 weighs just a bit more than the GT-R, however, the GT-R has a much more sophisticated AWD drivetrain. The GT-R absolutely spanks the M6 in performance terms, to the point if they were racing they would be in different classes. That being said the biggest read between the lines negative on the GT-R seems to be it's everyday, low speed smoothness.

As a road GT, fine, the M6 is a fine car no doubt even if it would not be my choice for $100K. But if we are talking road GT's ignoring the last 10th of performance concerns, another car I'd put in there with both cars (spitting the difference between the 5 and 6) would be the CLS63, just another 300 lbs
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      01-14-2008, 10:39 AM   #125
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      01-14-2008, 10:49 AM   #126
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      01-14-2008, 11:34 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Maybe sdiver68 is meaning that because the M5/6 has so much more weight over the front axle that the car feels heavy, which it does compared to either the M3 or 335i. This will always be the problem with a big lump of an engine which isn't placed inside the front axle and before you say it, Audi also have this problem but awd does control it to a degree, maybe BMW should take a leaf out of Ferrari's book and mount the gearbox at the rear to help balance out the weight and shift the engine more to the rear.

I would agree that there is currently very little out there to compete with the M5 as an overall package though maybe the RS6 might just pip it on outright ability and performance.
Why do you always talk out of your ass, man? You never drove the M5 but you talk shit.
"Soooooooooo much more weight over the front axle?"

Please don't give Audi as examples. We all know the horrible weight distribution that Audi has. Nose heavy as hell as underteering like crap!!!

Please stop coming on this forum, if all your are trying to do is put BMW down. You don't own an E9x.

Go away!
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      01-14-2008, 11:50 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by E90ice View Post
Why do you always talk out of your ass, man? You never drove the M5 but you talk shit.
"Soooooooooo much more weight over the front axle?"

Please don't give Audi as examples. We all know the horrible weight distribution that Audi has. Nose heavy as hell as underteering like crap!!!

Please stop coming on this forum, if all your are trying to do is put BMW down. You don't own an E9x.

Go away!
If you think the M5 and M6 aren't nose heavy then sorry mate but it's you who hasn't driven either and doesn't know your facts and are looking at bit silly, the M5 have a weight bias of 55% to the front and I doubt the M6 is much better.

As an Audi driver I know all about nose heaviest and it requires a different approach to your driving skill to overcome it's faults. As for me not owning a E9x, my E92 M3 will be here in the Autumn/Fall and I will gladly post photos of it in my garage when it comes.

I am not here to run down BMWs, the facts are I love the new M3, but doing so does not mean I have to love all of them, now does it. But one of the two here it's the M5 I prefer because it's not trying to be a sportscar, it's a quick saloon which it does a bloody good job at.
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      01-14-2008, 12:33 PM   #129
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If you think the M5 and M6 aren't nose heavy then sorry mate but it's you who hasn't driven either and doesn't know your facts and are looking at bit silly, the M5 have a weight bias of 55% to the front and I doubt the M6 is much better.

As an Audi driver I know all about nose heaviest and it requires a different approach to your driving skill to overcome it's faults. As for me not owning a E9x, my E92 M3 will be here in the Autumn/Fall and I will gladly post photos of it in my garage when it comes.

I am not here to run down BMWs, the facts are I love the new M3, but doing so does not mean I have to love all of them, now does it. But one of the two here it's the M5 I prefer because it's not trying to be a sportscar, it's a quick saloon which it does a bloody good job at.
But the M5 has a better distribution than even RS4 and the S5. And the M5 has a different purpose.

RS4 (58/42)
http://autos.yahoo.com/audi_rs4_sedan-specs/?p=ext

M5 (54/46) bmwusa.com

I just find it funny you give us and BMW "advice", when your own car is a nose heavy pig with understeering problems. Seriously.

And Yes, I drove the RS4 on the track and it was very unimpressive. Felt very heavy and not very powerful. I still think it's a great car, but not better than a BMW and not better than a 335 with a chip, and certainly over-priced just like the S5.

So, I don't know why you keep pushing these subjects where BMW has been the best for many many years.

You sound like Audi trying to teach Porsche how to build cars.
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      01-14-2008, 02:39 PM   #130
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But the M5 has a better distribution than even RS4 and the S5. And the M5 has a different purpose.

RS4 (58/42)
http://autos.yahoo.com/audi_rs4_sedan-specs/?p=ext

M5 (54/46) bmwusa.com

I just find it funny you give us and BMW "advice", when your own car is a nose heavy pig with understeering problems. Seriously.

And Yes, I drove the RS4 on the track and it was very unimpressive. Felt very heavy and not very powerful. I still think it's a great car, but not better than a BMW and not better than a 335 with a chip, and certainly over-priced just like the S5.

So, I don't know why you keep pushing these subjects where BMW has been the best for many many years.

You sound like Audi trying to teach Porsche how to build cars.
Son, can I call you that because the way you are talking to me reminds me that you are indeed a kid.

For a start the RS4 and M5 are both saloon cars and have as you put it the same purpose, not different. The S5 has a 56/44 bias which while better is not the improvement required for decent track work but as it has awd the shifting of torque to the rear or vice versa copes with this up to a point. The RS4 is a wonderful car but it's not a trackday star and the reason for this is the heavy nose, see my point. If the nose is heavy the car can't hold it's line as well or change direction as crisply, if this applies to the RS4 and S5 then the same is true for the M5 and M6.

I am not giving BMW any advice as they are perfectly capable of producing wonderful cars, like the M3 in all of it's forms. This thread is about which is best, the M5 or the M6 and all things considered the M5 is the easy victor as it's almost as capable on the track, is almost a quick in a straight line and yet is more capable at the job both cars were designed for which is daily transport.

If I had to be blunt about the M6, if it wasn't for the fact that in a straight line it was quicker than an M3 there would be no logical reason for this car at all, the M3 is more spacious, is cheaper to buy and to own and retains more value over a three year period, plus on the track the M3 is the more accomplished performer. I think even T-Bone would agree with this statement, but that's not to say that the M6 isn't an enjoyable car because it is, it has a wonderful engine and looks which are distinctive in a market where most play it safe. But if I happen to be in the market for a two seater coupe in this price bracket there would be quite a few choices ahead of the M6, 997CarerraS, XKR, Audi R8 but to name a few.

That final statement of yours made me laugh

Quote:
You sound like Audi trying to teach Porsche how to build cars
You see, that is what many people believe the R8 has just done.
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      01-14-2008, 03:58 PM   #131
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You see, that is what many people believe the R8 has just done.
Porsche owns VW/Audi, somehow I think this is more important to badge enthusiasts than the companies themselves. Also consider the Chairman of VW/Audi, Ferdinand Piech, is a grandson of the good Dr Porsche himself...
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      01-14-2008, 04:07 PM   #132
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Porsche owns VW/Audi, somehow I think this is more important to badge enthusiasts than the companies themselves. Also consider the Chairman of VW/Audi, Ferdinand Piech, is a grandson of the good Dr Porsche himself...
Exactly.

And Footie, my son , you totally missed my point.

You come here and claim this and that about BMW, when your own car/automaker has issues much bigger than BMW does. BMW makes much more balanced cars than Audi. That was my point.

And NO, RS4 and M5 were not meant for the same purpose, nor do they share the same price. The M5 is a bigger car. It competes with E AMG/RS6 etc....not RS4. And even so it still has a better chassis and weight distribution.

Audi needs to learn a few things from BMW and Porsche and basic car engineering before taking a step forward.

Thanks for listening, son. Class dismissed.

Back on topic: M5 vs M6...i would pick the M5 anyday.
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