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      02-25-2008, 10:16 AM   #177
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Stock v. stock, what would the outcome be?
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Bruce and swamp, are you guys having a pissing contest to see who can out smart the other. I just though I would post the original question just to get things back on track.
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      02-25-2008, 10:34 AM   #178
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Seems like this thread only has place for one engineering mastermind, so they'll have to go on untill one drops out...


Best regards, south
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      02-25-2008, 11:25 AM   #179
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The displacement is 4.0 liters.
Oops, my bad. Thanks for the correction, which BTW makes the M3 engine even more impressive, but we all know that already.
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      02-25-2008, 11:40 AM   #180
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Tell me, who here genuinely believes the M3 is kicking out 450hp in stock form.
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      02-25-2008, 12:01 PM   #181
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Oops, my bad. Thanks for the correction, which BTW makes the M3 engine even more impressive, but we all know that already.
Yes, but it also makes it less likely that it will be underrated since there are limits to how much power you can extract out of a NA engine per liter reliably. The M3 does not match the F430 in that respect, but it is close.

Anyway, not that this proves anything either. The truth is we will never know for sure since testers will not pull an engine out just to see if it is rated correctly by BMW.
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      02-25-2008, 12:38 PM   #182
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Tell me, who here genuinely believes the M3 is kicking out 450hp in stock form.
Not me, i'm guessing 430-440hp which is really not so improbable. The 450hp example that i mentioned is just the worst or best case scenario, which is probably not the case.
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      02-25-2008, 01:21 PM   #183
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footie: Would this be the first time a thread wandered in it's discussion? Also haven't the actual test numbers and opinions/analysis posted herein fully answered the original question?

gbb: I really don't think I owe you any reply nor help in understanding the performance of cars based on your poor attitude and insults but here are some big tips. Power and torque are second in line to torque delivered to the wheels (across a broad rpm range) divided by vehicle weight. All of your other "points" are fairly inconsequential without looking at this level of detail. Which brings me to Bruce....

Bruce: After some further thought, investigation, simulations and your posts as well I think the largest advantage of the M3 engine over the LS3 Vette engine is indeed its flat and wide torque curve. If you looks at the torque (or force) delivered to the wheels the M3 has higer values. It even has better peal values per vehicle weight. And because of the relatively llow rpms where peak torque and power occur in the Vette the torque to the ground curves really fall off early and dramatically (again compared with the M3). The M3 engine really allows broad and high torque to the wheels by its combination of of flat and broad torque curve combined with high torque multiplication through gearing. This goes a long way in addition to my other comments to explain performance similarities. All that being said in simulation and in all well controlled "apples to apples" straight line races the Vette will best the M3. As you and others stated the M3 is simply an over-achiever and the above is why.

Lastly, I clearly admitted the advantages of the Vette engine (and Vette engine stuffed in an M3) and that it would make the car superior in all times for 0-speed X contests. What is wrong with pointing out an interesting fact that there are still advantages and real advantages of the existing engine in the existing chassis? Sorry I guess I don't see that being out of place on m3post.com, nor being disingenuous. -1 on that Bruce.

Last edited by swamp2; 02-25-2008 at 02:52 PM.
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      02-25-2008, 02:41 PM   #184
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First of all Swamp, you're right that you don't owe me anything especially a reply, help, or an explanation and i don't owe you any of those either. You don't want to respond to any of my post that's fine with me, i on the other hand will respond to any post that i feel need to and will only respond to it accordingly. My initial post that i responded about your post did not have any sarcasm intended or any malice whatsoever. You assumed that i did and responded the wrong way. So please don't lecture me about having poor attitude and being rude when you yourself is the epitome of such things. You know how the old saying goes, "people that live in a glass house should'nt throw stones". Something like that not sure if i got that right. If you don't agree with someone's post then don't, just say so and post your argument or make a point. No need to get testy about it. Again, your claim is just as good as mine, neither one of us has any actual proofs to back it up with and we'll both leave it at that, just speculations. Remember Swamp, you're not always right.

Last edited by gbb357; 02-25-2008 at 08:18 PM.
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      02-25-2008, 02:50 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbb357 View Post
First of all Swamp, you're right that you don't owe me anything especially a reply, help, or an explanation and i don't you any of those either. You don't want to respond to any of my post that's fine with me, i on the other hand will respond to any post that i feel need to and will only respond to it accordingly. My initial post that i responded about your post did not have any sarcasm intended or any malice whatsoever. You assumed that i did and responded the wrong way. So please don't lecture me about having poor attitude and being rude when you yourself is the epitome of such things. You know how the old saying goes, "people that live in a glass house should'nt throw stones". Something like that not sure if i got that right. If you don't agree with someone's post then don't, just say so and post your argument or make a point. No need to get testy about it. Again, your claim is just as good as mine, neither one of us has any actual proofs to back it up with and we'll both leave it at that, just speculations. Remember Swamp, you're not always right.
Perhaps I can remind you of the difference between a call of sarcasm and baiting (which you did) vs. outright name calling and insults. Whether or not I'm right is only half of this, your continual childish and insulting behavior is the other half.

Back on point and based on my reply do you have any better understanding of what actually makes a car fast?
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      02-25-2008, 06:58 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Perhaps I can remind you of the difference between a call of sarcasm and baiting (which you did) vs. outright name calling and insults. Whether or not I'm right is only half of this, your continual childish and insulting behavior is the other half.

Back on point and based on my reply do you have any better understanding of what actually makes a car fast?
Are you serious about that question? I'm not even going to answer that question. You still insist that i was baiting you and i'm telling you i wasn't. Believe what you want, don't care, don't matter. In terms of my childish and insulting behavoir, just giving you a taste of your own medicine.

Last edited by gbb357; 02-25-2008 at 08:18 PM.
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      02-26-2008, 01:44 AM   #187
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Quote:
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Back on point and based on my reply do you have any better understanding of what actually makes a car fast?
normally in most of my (track) experience is the DRIVER that makes the car fast (or slow) ! :t humsup:
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      02-26-2008, 10:30 AM   #188
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normally in most of my (track) experience is the DRIVER that makes the car fast (or slow) ! :t humsup:
Actually it's when the driver steps on the gas pedal that makes the car go fast.
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      02-26-2008, 10:49 PM   #189
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There is no point in arguing with Swamp2. He will overshadow any quality argument with spaceless thick paragraph that states the same thing over and over. Interestingly, no sentence will actually address your question or point.

Swamp2 is also accomplished designer/simulator of brake and suspension components. Also, physicist, scientist and engineer. A kid, khmm I mean man, wears many hats.

Everybody, please, lets give Swamp2 a round of applause.
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      02-27-2008, 09:30 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
There is no point in arguing with Swamp2. He will overshadow any quality argument with spaceless thick paragraph that states the same thing over and over. Interestingly, no sentence will actually address your question or point.

Swamp2 is also accomplished designer/simulator of brake and suspension components. Also, physicist, scientist and engineer. A kid, khmm I mean man, wears many hats.

Everybody, please, lets give Swamp2 a round of applause.
Wow I'm flattered, you have thoroughly researched my background in multiple threads. I'm happy to provide evidence of any of my accomplishments or credentials (all of which are so remotely automotive related...).

Other than that your ongoing baseless, rude and insecure posts continue to show your true colors to us all. Keep it up.
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      02-28-2008, 12:31 AM   #191
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on a serious...non-sarcastic note now...

I think I told you already that I'm not on internet forum to build reputation, much less to impress anyone. Fact is somebody has to tell you are full of poop...seriously.

Your writing already does a great job on its own showing your lack of automotive technical knowledge. You are resourceful in data gathering (no sarcasm, you are great at that). Your arguments against Bruce and entire reasoning on high rpm design is completely flawed and amateurish at best. I can't even stomach arguing with you on spring design. Technical content that you paraphrase is painfully vague and incomplete.

It is obvious you are eager to learn, but the image you are trying to reflect here is comical. Stop pretending and misrepresenting. Quality content in posts is quite easy to recognize. Pick your battles if you have solid knowledge in some area, but don't try to be everything to everyone in every single forum....pretty please. As the old adage goes - little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.

Good luck to you!
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      02-28-2008, 09:43 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
on a serious...non-sarcastic note now...

I think I told you already that I'm not on internet forum to build reputation, much less to impress anyone. Fact is somebody has to tell you are full of poop...seriously.

Your writing already does a great job on its own showing your lack of automotive technical knowledge. You are resourceful in data gathering (no sarcasm, you are great at that). Your arguments against Bruce and entire reasoning on high rpm design is completely flawed and amateurish at best. I can't even stomach arguing with you on spring design. Technical content that you paraphrase is painfully vague and incomplete.

It is obvious you are eager to learn, but the image you are trying to reflect here is comical. Stop pretending and misrepresenting. Quality content in posts is quite easy to recognize. Pick your battles if you have solid knowledge in some area, but don't try to be everything to everyone in every single forum....pretty please. As the old adage goes - little bit of knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.

Good luck to you!

It is simply too painful and impossible for you to admit your silly little error on leaf springs isn't it? That is what precipitated this entire childish little "battle". Now instead of simply accepting someone elses insights and better knowledge than yours, you want to attack based on credibility and insult. Again, my reputation here for insight, perspectives, novel finds and novel posts stands on its own. The above, as most of your attacks are utterly without fact nor merit. What exaclty do you have to show for yourself, background, insights, reputation, anything? You pick your battles, Mr. Malter. I am more than willing to discuss any particulars where I am in such gross error. You don't want to though because they don't exisit and when they do I have freely and politely admitted them. Stick with your massive generalizations and broad, sweeping, meritless accusations. Again, your colors are really flying.
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      02-28-2008, 11:37 AM   #193
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Not sure why this thread turned into a discussion on the characters of forum members, which I find highly irrelevant. Can we please stick to the issues at hand regarding the two engines/cars?
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      02-28-2008, 11:51 AM   #194
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      02-28-2008, 11:55 AM   #195
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Not sure why this thread turned into a discussion on the characters of forum members, which I find highly irrelevant. Can we please stick to the issues at hand regarding the two engines/cars?
+1, These threads never end and we have lots of them on here.
Resorting back to the topic at hand is probably for the best.
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      02-28-2008, 12:48 PM   #196
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+1, These threads never end and we have lots of them on here.
Resorting back to the topic at hand is probably for the best.
word! perfect thread to increase post count
jkjk man
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      03-06-2008, 02:26 PM   #197
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Wow, I had forgotten about this.
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      03-06-2008, 06:15 PM   #198
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word! perfect thread to increase post count
jkjk man
+1
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