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      02-10-2008, 04:18 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Ya, and your technologically advanced S65 does not have the horsepower, torque, and worst of all, efficiency of new GT2, huge 8.4 Viper, or Z06. Now that is "technological advancement" at it's shining best. Please show me a more powerful and efficient production engine from the mighty M or any any auto manufacturer for that matter, that can match the lowly Chevy push rod LS9 in the ZR1. Please show me.

Read any reviews of the the M3's on-center steering feel? It can't even compete with a base 328.

By the way have you seen the interiors in the 2008 Vettes. Makes the M3's interior look like you are attending a funeral.
OK I haven't had time to post, but I spent 45 minutes driving the heck out of an M3 coupe demo, sticker was 86K Euros !

I then drove the same route in my 08 C-6 Corvette, Z-51 Etc.

and I tell you the M3 steering feel is amazing, It revs to redline much quicker than any V-8 car I have driven and is SO different from my wifes 335.

Chevy gets a bad wrap, the Corvette will compete with any car, it lacks the steering feel or the Red line of the european v-8s however no-one needs to doubt this car especially with an Msrp of $46K USD

I was blown away again with the M-3 handling, the balance and poise at speed and the way it feels so much better than the 335, almost industrial strength. The Transmission, rear diff, everything works togeather, Yes I ordered one, It will have the DCT

Chevrolet basically builds bulletproof engines and has since the 50s (30s) actually. The BMW is finished better, has a better ride but sure as heck doesnt have the supercar lines of the corvette.

They are both good, you can almost buy 2 vettes for the cost of a ultimately loaded M3 in the states.

And My M3, My C-6 and a 135 for my son is less than the Gt3 RS I have lusted over. I was an admitted Porsche snob, BMW changed my mind when I test drove the 335, The Corvette, I drove on a track and was ready to hate it, now I own one. It's Ironic almost

for the few who think the 335 will have the feel of a M-3, you will be disapointed, sorry but the M diff, balance and Power band will blow you away.

If I had to pick one car for track and DD use it would be the M-3 no contest

enough ramblings
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      02-10-2008, 04:27 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by malter2.0 View Post
engine is the only thing corvette has. to be fair, even the engine is nothing special. bmw can extract 100hp+/liter any day, out of any engine.

while ls3 and ls7 are more advanced than predecessors, there is absolutely zero technological advancement. engine is still a push-rod with 16 valves and getting 505hp out of 7L or 436 out of 6.2L is nothing special. of course in a typical GM matter, to obtain extra 36hp, instead of revising intake/exhaust sides out of their previous 6L engine, chevy increases displacement. how innovative!!!

haven't been following on suspension. are they still on leaf springs? interior is still out of a rental malibu and on-center steering feel is disastrous in comparison to any other $50k performance car.

great power bargain for drag strip. thats about it.
You obviously havent tracked a vette, oh when you talk about leaf springs
I bet you dont understand how they are facing or why?

On a Track the Corvette is now a serious competitor, but I doubt you have driven one there. I have afriend with a Z06 near Lime rock, is that anywhere close ? The LS3 motor was already in Chevys line up so they put it in the Vette. I will put a C6 up against an M3 on any road race track and they will be close.
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      02-10-2008, 04:30 PM   #69
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Ruff, as far as interiors go, I think that you are crazy. I spent some time in a 2008 Z06 and LS3 (test driving them) and I have to say, the interiors are cheap. BMW's are spartan and appear to be of a lessor quality than previous years but there is no way that Chevy has bested them in interior quailty.
I think he is referring to the 4LT hand-stitched custom leather interior option, which is of very high quality. It is sourced from the suppliers of Maybach. However, for the $4100 price difference from the 3LT...
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      02-10-2008, 04:32 PM   #70
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OK I haven't had time to post, but I spent 45 minutes driving the heck out of an M3 coupe demo, sticker was 86K Euros !

I then drove the same route in my 08 C-6 Corvette, Z-51 Etc.

and I tell you the M3 steering feel is amazing, It revs to redline much quicker than any V-8 car I have driven and is SO different from my wifes 335.

Chevy gets a bad wrap, the Corvette will compete with any car, it lacks the steering feel or the Red line of the european v-8s however no-one needs to doubt this car especially with an Msrp of $46K USD

I was blown away again with the M-3 handling, the balance and poise at speed and the way it feels so much better than the 335, almost industrial strength. The Transmission, rear diff, everything works togeather, Yes I ordered one, It will have the DCT

Chevrolet basically builds bulletproof engines and has since the 50s (30s) actually. The BMW is finished better, has a better ride but sure as heck doesnt have the supercar lines of the corvette.

They are both good, you can almost buy 2 vettes for the cost of a ultimately loaded M3 in the states.

And My M3, My C-6 and a 135 for my son is less than the Gt3 RS I have lusted over. I was an admitted Porsche snob, BMW changed my mind when I test drove the 335, The Corvette, I drove on a track and was ready to hate it, now I own one. It's Ironic almost

for the few who think the 335 will have the feel of a M-3, you will be disapointed, sorry but the M diff, balance and Power band will blow you away.

If I had to pick one car for track and DD use it would be the M-3 no contest

enough ramblings

It's great to hear such positive comments about the M.

I totally agree with you on the RS price thing. I fiqured for the price of a 997tt I could have a 335 as my dd and an M as my more fun car. So, as hard as it was I sold the tt while the market was hot and did just that. Now I can drive four times the miles per year (collectively). And, I had money left.
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      02-10-2008, 04:35 PM   #71
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I think he is referring to the 4LT hand-stitched custom leather interior option, which is of very high quality. It is sourced from the suppliers of Maybach. However, for the $4100 price difference from the 3LT...
How much? Is it available for the Z06 as well?
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      02-10-2008, 04:51 PM   #72
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How much? Is it available for the Z06 as well?
yup called the 3LZ package for the ZO6, quite nice.


well people 2 different cars here, yes the interior is nicer on the BMW so is the raod feel, I'm honest enough to admit that, I didn't buy the C6 for the interior or ride.
for those of you that love to bash vehicles, hey it's a free world but that just shows ignorance on your part, but that's not what the thread asks

back to the thread

the technological new M3, will see the the tail pipes of the plastic large displacement chevy 10 out of 10 times.

only thing is you ca carry 3 chicks in a M only 1 in the vette
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      02-10-2008, 05:01 PM   #73
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yup called the 3LZ package for the ZO6, quite nice.


well people 2 different cars here, yes the interior is nicer on the BMW so is the raod feel, I'm honest enough to admit that, I didn't buy the C6 for the interior or ride.
for those of you that love to bash vehicles, hey it's a free world but that just shows ignorance on your part, but that's not what the thread asks

back to the thread

the technological new M3, will see the the tail pipes of the plastic large displacement chevy 10 out of 10 times.

only thing is you ca carry 3 chicks in a M only 1 in the vette

Well... if you took the time to read my post, you'd see that I didn't bash the vette. I just offered my opinion on the interior.
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      02-10-2008, 06:18 PM   #74
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Well... if you took the time to read my post, you'd see that I didn't bash the vette. I just offered my opinion on the interior.
don't take things personal, my post was not meant for you it was meant for the narrow minded individual that compared the interior of the vette to the malibu
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      02-10-2008, 08:02 PM   #75
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Ruff, as far as interiors go, I think that you are crazy. I spent some time in a 2008 Z06 and LS3 (test driving them) and I have to say, the interiors are cheap. BMW's are spartan and appear to be of a lessor quality than previous years but there is no way that Chevy has bested them in interior quailty.
Devo,

Maybe a little do-diligence is in order before you start making brash statements without knowing your subject matter. I didn't say anything about quality but rather the atmosphere of the interiors.

It was you who was also upset with me for pointing out the C2S doesn't come with an LSD option in the states. Read my first sentence again.

By the way, the new Malibu has as exciting interior as anything offered in a 3 series except for maybe the priority 1 option Lemon offered in the E90.
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      02-10-2008, 09:28 PM   #76
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Devo,

Maybe a little do-diligence is in order before you start making brash statements without knowing your subject matter. I didn't say anything about quality but rather the atmosphere of the interiors.

It was you who was also upset with me for pointing out the C2S doesn't come with an LSD option in the states. Read my first sentence again.

By the way, the new Malibu has as exciting interior as anything offered in a 3 series except for maybe the priority 1 option Lemon offered in the E90.
Ruff,

This post has nothing to do with the C2S.

I am aware of the subject matter. Your statement can be taken either way. I am merely refuting my interpretation. If you think that is brash, so be it. And, I don't find anything exciting about the Malibu's interior.

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      02-10-2008, 11:04 PM   #77
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I would say the M3 will be faster. and yes I have driven a e46 M3, c5 z06, c6 and c6 z06 on the track. but not a new m3. but my answer is based on RandT road test data. the M3 wins in every catogary, 0-60, 1/4 mile, braking, skid pad and slolam. is the Vette a super sports car? yes. but its a pure sports car with two seats. but the M3 is a 4/5 seat sedan with a real trunk.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d..._datapanel.pdf
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      02-11-2008, 11:13 AM   #78
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I would say the M3 will be faster. and yes I have driven a e46 M3, c5 z06, c6 and c6 z06 on the track. but not a new m3. but my answer is based on RandT road test data. the M3 wins in every catogary, 0-60, 1/4 mile, braking, skid pad and slolam. is the Vette a super sports car? yes. but its a pure sports car with two seats. but the M3 is a 4/5 seat sedan with a real trunk.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d..._datapanel.pdf
Here's a 2005 Corvette data from R&T. http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...mparo_data.pdf

Just so you know, C&D did much better than these numbers. My point is, they are very close with the current M3 numbers, so in any given day one can do better than the other depending on driver, conditions, etc. etc. But overall, i still think the new Vette should be quicker and faster especially with the hp bump up to 430.
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      02-11-2008, 10:03 PM   #79
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You obviously havent tracked a vette, oh when you talk about leaf springs
I bet you dont understand how they are facing or why?

On a Track the Corvette is now a serious competitor, but I doubt you have driven one there. I have afriend with a Z06 near Lime rock, is that anywhere close ? The LS3 motor was already in Chevys line up so they put it in the Vette. I will put a C6 up against an M3 on any road race track and they will be close.
whether they are horizontally or vertically positioned, they are still damn leaf springs. i refuse to acknowledge anything with leaf springs as competitive or remotely modern. it can track n-ring in 4 miliseconds for all i care.
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      02-11-2008, 10:17 PM   #80
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Here's a 2005 Corvette data from R&T. http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/d...mparo_data.pdf

Just so you know, C&D did much better than these numbers. My point is, they are very close with the current M3 numbers, so in any given day one can do better than the other depending on driver, conditions, etc. etc. But overall, i still think the new Vette should be quicker and faster especially with the hp bump up to 430.
my comparison was with a 2008 430 hp vette tested in jan 2008 by RandT. its listed inthe backof the mag under road test summary. could not find a link. yes they are close enough that a driver would make the difference or maybe variation in cars. but which one would be faster driving down a mountain with four passengers and luggage?
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      02-12-2008, 11:51 AM   #81
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whether they are horizontally or vertically positioned, they are still damn leaf springs. i refuse to acknowledge anything with leaf springs as competitive or remotely modern. it can track n-ring in 4 miliseconds for all i care.
so your admiting that you'll be dusted by old western stage coach technology. You might get a good view of the leaf spring from behind.


got to go my chariot with leaf spings awaits me.
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      02-12-2008, 12:30 PM   #82
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my comparison was with a 2008 430 hp vette tested in jan 2008 by RandT. its listed inthe backof the mag under road test summary. could not find a link. yes they are close enough that a driver would make the difference or maybe variation in cars. but which one would be faster driving down a mountain with four passengers and luggage?
The thing about Road and Track (and many other such publications) is that they publish just what they measure, and that can throw you (and me) off when trying to make comparisons, because of weather conditions. In this case, the M3 test was done under what appear to be very good weather conditions in Germany - plus the results are the quickest anyone has ever seen for an M3. The Vette was tested in their home venue, and they say in the text that if the '08 Vette was tested under the same conditions as the previous 400 HP LS2 version, it would be a tenth or two quicker, etc.

It was actually a little slower in that test, so the implication is that they were testing under adverse weather conditions.

Looking up Car and Driver comparative numbers, they get 12.8 @ 113 for the M3 (in a followup test with better traction conditions than their initial numbers in Spain), and 12.4 @ 116 for the Vette. These seem to fall about where you'd expect they'd fall, power-to-weight wise. More importantly, C & D zeroes their numbers to C & D standard day conditions in order to try and keep the playing field level.

As I mentioned back in note 11 in this string, the wonder is just how quick and fast the new M3 is, given its weight and mission. More BMW magic, from my point of view.

Still, that 8:05 at the 'Ring didn't get it done against the '05 Vette's 7:59, even with the aggressive rubber and brake pads they were using on the M3 at the time. The '08 Vette would likely better that 7:59 (maybe lucid and Swamp could give us an estimate), while if the M3 doesn't list those hot-damn sneakers and brake pads as regular production options in the U.S., you've have to believe it would be a number of seconds slower at the 'Ring with its standard PS2 (or whatever) tires - plus its apparently somewhat fade-prone brakes offered as standard equipment.

Yeah, I know it was Horst who was in the M3 instead of a hired gun, and that, plus the lack of the DCT at the time means the car could've been the equal of the Vette or even a bit quicker - but netting out tires, brakes and a hired gun will mean the time would likely go up by several seconds instead of down.

So, the Vette is quicker, as it damned well should be, given its power-to-weight and mission.

Again, the wonder is just how well the M3 performs against cars like the Vette, 997S and other high-performance offerings.

Bruce

PS - That "which one would be faster driving down a mountain with four passengers and luggage?" comment is M3 apologetic and immaterial, given the title of the thread. If we start to compare things that don't matter performance-wise, the Vette has a much bigger trunk.
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      02-12-2008, 01:10 PM   #83
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whether they are horizontally or vertically positioned, they are still damn leaf springs. i refuse to acknowledge anything with leaf springs as competitive or remotely modern. it can track n-ring in 4 miliseconds for all i care.
anything that is not modern is not good?

Take my 1994 Porsche 911 RSAmerica that has basically the same suspension as the 1964 911 in front and a 1952 Porsche 356 in the rear and will handle as well as any E36 or earlier M-3 and stay with many E-46 Ms on a track.

I drove a e92 M3 hard for nearly an hour on Sunday, followed by the 08 Corvette Z-51 and followed by the E93 335I.

I am glad I ordered the M-3, it is fantastic,a true super coupe or sedan. The Corvette however has much cleaner lines and is fun to toss around it is more of a super car feel. The Z-06 is almost too much.

I am a true M-3 believer, and was as ignorant and as stubborn as you are in acknowledging the Corvette as a world class sports car, I talked trash about
Vettes until I took one out on a track. \\

If you refuse to try you refuse to learn,

That said, since you likely had to look-up the direction the leaf-springs
on a vette were facing but not why they are part of the design then
then you allow yourself to be uneducated. Old Technology is not so bad
My house in Germany was built using a brick design that dates back 500
years, holds heat in the winter, and is cool in the summer. The Beer I drink is a 600 year old recipe.

There is much danger in keeping a closed mind
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      02-12-2008, 03:59 PM   #84
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The thing about Road and Track (and many other such publications) is that they publish just what they measure, and that can throw you (and me) off when trying to make comparisons, because of weather conditions. In this case, the M3 test was done under what appear to be very good weather conditions in Germany - plus the results are the quickest anyone has ever seen for an M3. The Vette was tested in their home venue, and they say in the text that if the '08 Vette was tested under the same conditions as the previous 400 HP LS2 version, it would be a tenth or two quicker, etc.

It was actually a little slower in that test, so the implication is that they were testing under adverse weather conditions.

Looking up Car and Driver comparative numbers, they get 12.8 @ 113 for the M3 (in a followup test with better traction conditions than their initial numbers in Spain), and 12.4 @ 116 for the Vette. These seem to fall about where you'd expect they'd fall, power-to-weight wise. More importantly, C & D zeroes their numbers to C & D standard day conditions in order to try and keep the playing field level.

As I mentioned back in note 11 in this string, the wonder is just how quick and fast the new M3 is, given its weight and mission. More BMW magic, from my point of view.

Still, that 8:05 at the 'Ring didn't get it done against the '05 Vette's 7:59, even with the aggressive rubber and brake pads they were using on the M3 at the time. The '08 Vette would likely better that 7:59 (maybe lucid and Swamp could give us an estimate), while if the M3 doesn't list those hot-damn sneakers and brake pads as regular production options in the U.S., you've have to believe it would be a number of seconds slower at the 'Ring with its standard PS2 (or whatever) tires - plus its apparently somewhat fade-prone brakes offered as standard equipment.

Yeah, I know it was Horst who was in the M3 instead of a hired gun, and that, plus the lack of the DCT at the time means the car could've been the equal of the Vette or even a bit quicker - but netting out tires, brakes and a hired gun will mean the time would likely go up by several seconds instead of down.

So, the Vette is quicker, as it damned well should be, given its power-to-weight and mission.

Again, the wonder is just how well the M3 performs against cars like the Vette, 997S and other high-performance offerings.

Bruce

PS - That "which one would be faster driving down a mountain with four passengers and luggage?" comment is M3 apologetic and immaterial, given the title of the thread. If we start to compare things that don't matter performance-wise, the Vette has a much bigger trunk.

M= Magic
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      02-12-2008, 04:53 PM   #85
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whether they are horizontally or vertically positioned, they are still damn leaf springs. i refuse to acknowledge anything with leaf springs as competitive or remotely modern. it can track n-ring in 4 miliseconds for all i care.
First of all some good discussion here. Great to see some of the very rational and balanced views comparing the two cars.

On leaf springs: Malter you are waaaay off base here.

There is nothing inherently bad about leaf springs. Sure there are many very low tech., crude and inexpensive implementations of leaf springs but that does not make them bad. As I like to say, a spring is a spring is a spring. The function of a spring is simple; to support the weight of the car, provide a restorative force given inputs that move the wheel and to interact with the shocks via their damping. There can be subtle differences in a spring curve but genrally they are quite linear (force = constant x displacement). Most non-linear effects come from the kinematics of the suspension arms. Not only is a spring a spring, but the Vettes use some really trick composite leaf springs. This system saves a lot of weight over a traditional coil spring and the success of the obsession in low weight design is clearly evident in the car.

Just as background I used to be a huge Corvette fan when very young in the 1970's. I mostly was just excited by the swoopy body styles, bright colors and hot rod image. Due to general quality issues and image issues I lost that love of Vettes. Today I greatly respect the amazing price to performance ratio and track worthiness of the cars. They have certainly drastically improved the car since the 80s. That being said I would not buy one for myself.

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      02-12-2008, 08:00 PM   #86
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engine is the only thing corvette has. to be fair, even the engine is nothing special. bmw can extract 100hp+/liter any day, out of any engine.

while ls3 and ls7 are more advanced than predecessors, there is absolutely zero technological advancement. engine is still a push-rod with 16 valves and getting 505hp out of 7L or 436 out of 6.2L is nothing special. of course in a typical GM matter, to obtain extra 36hp, instead of revising intake/exhaust sides out of their previous 6L engine, chevy increases displacement. how innovative!!!

haven't been following on suspension. are they still on leaf springs? interior is still out of a rental malibu and on-center steering feel is disastrous in comparison to any other $50k performance car.

great power bargain for drag strip. thats about it.
Great example of pinhead logic plus ignorance.

See, the point I was making was that the LS3 is lighter than the M3 V8. It's also more compact (particularly in height), so you can get a lower center of gravity. Obviously, it also makes more power (by 22 hp), and more torque (by 124 pound feet!). If you put this engine in a new M3, you'd have a lighter car that would handle a little better (due to the lower center of gravity), plus the car would be quite a bit faster on a drag strip or road course - and be stupendously faster on the street in everyday driving.

Technology that results in more power per liter only matters if it matters - and in the case of the LS3 vs the new M3 V8, it doesn't matter at all.

Leaf springs? If you open your mind and check out the springs on the Vette, you'd be nodding your head in appreciation. There's another area where technology only matters when it matters, and the new Vette will beat the M3 easily on a road course as well as a drag strip - or anywhere else, for that matter, including gas mileage.

The standard interior is just about to Malibu specs, but if you check out a new Malibu V6, it's probably the absolute standard of its class. Yeah, the Vette is far from terrific, but not bad at all.

Plus, for those who care, the new optional interior is just plain nice. Very upscale, in fact.

The on-center steering feel in the '08 Vette is very good, thank you. I haven't driven a new M3 to compare yet.

I'm not in the market for a new Vette (and may be for the new M3 if it drives better than I think it will), but facts is facts.

Bruce
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      02-12-2008, 10:32 PM   #87
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First of all some good discussion here. Great to see some of the very rational and balanced views comparing the two cars.

On leaf springs: Malter you are waaaay off base here.

There is nothing inherently bad about leaf springs. Sure there are .....

Great forum, great thread and excellent post! The ability for people here to disagree and yet acknowledge the others point is impressive.

The Corvette is one of the vehicles I am also interested in, along with the 335i and the BMW's newcommer, the 135i.

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      02-13-2008, 03:34 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
See, the point I was making was that the LS3 is lighter than the M3 V8. It's also more compact (particularly in height), so you can get a lower center of gravity. Obviously, it also makes more power (by 22 hp), and more torque (by 124 pound feet!). If you put this engine in a new M3, you'd have a lighter car that would handle a little better (due to the lower center of gravity), plus the car would be quite a bit faster on a drag strip or road course - and be stupendously faster on the street in everyday driving.
A DOHC design carries some extra weight up top and that is a small draw back of its deisgn. However, the redline of the M3 is quite stupendous. Your post above is a bit dismissive of the value of a high rpm engine. The Vette engine is not absolutely better in all regards, hands down.

Also as far as engine weights go: If we can barely agree on what cars weigh and they are regulated by laws, standards and conventions how can we expect folks to meausure and report engine weights in a fair and consistent fashion. For example I seriously doubt that the 6.3 l AMG motor weighs close to the same as the M3s engine. It is so much larger and unless made of unobtainium larger generally = heavier. And they are the same basic layout/design as well making it an "apples to apples".
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