Did Jesus die for the sins of the world?

[hks786]

I thought I would launch a new thread because I didnt want to take over Enfields thread. Infact, maybe I should have done this a long time ago because most of my discussion with Christian brothers is in the "Are we at war with Islam?" thread...

Anyway, I invite all Christian brothers to present their answer to the question "Did Jesus die for the sins of the world?". Obviously I will present my views, but I thought I would give Christian brothers a chance first.

Please note that everything I say in response to Christian brothers is out of respect. If I ever offend anyone, then I apologise in advance.

[phrozen06]

Did Jesus Die for the sins of the world. Absolutely!!!

[hks786]

Originally Posted by phrozen06

Did Jesus Die for the sins of the world. Absolutely!!!

Thanks for the input. Can you explain why you believe in it?

[UncleWede]

He did die, as a sacrifice for humanity.

I think were you might misinterpret this, judging from our previous posts, is that just because he died for the sins of Man, it does NOT mean that all sins are forgiven and we have free reign to commit whatever our weak flesh wants. After teh resurection, Jesus returned to the apostles to give them a charter for what became the new church. A part of that was where he granted teh apostles teh ability to forgive sins IF they are confessed. A part of that decision lies with the priest hearing the confession. I don't have explicit tuition on this subject since I did not enter the preisthood, but a detected feeling of remorse, and suitable penance must be preformed before the sin is forgiven. I can't quote you the verse but it's along eht lines of "those sins you forgive are forgiven, those you hold bound are held bound"

[enfield]

My view is that Jesus did not die for anyone. Jesus did not exist so how could a fictional character die for anyone's sins or good deeds?

[UncleWede]

By a respectful counter-question, there are tomes and tomes about Hercules, Zeus, Hera, etc. Did they exist?

[Ninjaneer]

Related question of my own: when you say Jesus died for the sins of mankind, does this view cover those who have accepted Christianity only, or does it cover everyone (before and after Jesus)?

[hks786]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

He did die, as a sacrifice for humanity.

I think were you might misinterpret this, judging from our previous posts, is that just because he died for the sins of Man, it does NOT mean that all sins are forgiven and we have free reign to commit whatever our weak flesh wants. After teh resurection, Jesus returned to the apostles to give them a charter for what became the new church. A part of that was where he granted teh apostles teh ability to forgive sins IF they are confessed. A part of that decision lies with the priest hearing the confession. I don't have explicit tuition on this subject since I did not enter the preisthood, but a detected feeling of remorse, and suitable penance must be preformed before the sin is forgiven. I can't quote you the verse but it's along eht lines of "those sins you forgive are forgiven, those you hold bound are held bound"

I know that Romans says that "the wages of sin is death" but if you say there had to be a sacrifice for forgiveness, you are limiting God's ability. God has no requirements to forgive. Allah says in the Quran that he says "be" and it is.

Also, why should you have to confess your sins to anyone other than God? I feel that Islam is the truth because it understands the concept of sin much differently.

Allah firstly says that "man was created weak". His noble Prophet (SAW) also said that "All children of Adam (AS) are sinners, but the best of sinners are those who repent".

However, I feel that the Bible contradicts itself. Jesus tells many parables etc that show us that forgiveness has NO requirement at all. The fact is that Allah is so loving and understanding about our weaknesses. He encourages us to go to him for forgiveness. He has the absolute power to exercise forgivess without any requirement. That my friend, is love.

[UncleWede]

RESPECTFULLY, then why are you not out whoring and debasing yourself in search of mortal pleasures, if Allah forgives you?

If you must only "confess" in your prayers, and with no "outside" decision in the penance, how do you judge yourself appropriately for the sin you committed? Hence, we have an intermediary to absolve us of our sins. Having the humility to confess to another human, who will judge and help you with the proper decision is a good thing.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

RESPECTFULLY, then why are you not out whoring and debasing yourself in search of mortal pleasures, if Allah forgives you?

Why would I want to do that? Part of Islam is understanding what acts are sins. Another part of Islam is understanding that Allah can forgive these sins with no requirements. Another part of Islam is knowing that Allah knoweth what is in our hearts.

If I go out commiting sins knowing that Allah will forgive me, that is HUGELY arrogant. Also, it will mean that when I repent, I am not truly sorry for my sin and I think I can fool Allah into wiping my sin. As a Christian, I'm sure you know how important it is that we are truly sorry for our sins.

Originally Posted by UncleWede

Hence, we have an intermediary to absolve us of our sins. Having the humility to confess to another human, who will judge and help you with the proper decision is a good thing.

You speak of showing humility to another human, why not show humility to the one Lord who CREATED you? It is God's law you broke, not the person you confess to. We believe that Allah alone has the power to forgive sins. Why should we require anyone else to forgive us?

[UncleWede]

Jesus died so that all may avail themselves of his saving grace, Jew or Gentile. But, you must beleive in his nature and grace.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

Jesus died so that all may avail themselves of his saving grace, Jew or Gentile. But, you must beleive in his nature and grace.

Well, if I was to respond to that I would firstly ask who is Jesus? I have shown at great length that he is not the Son of God. Now, even if he was the Son of God, it would be theologically impossible for him to die for the sins of the world. I feel there are just far too many impossiblities and unanswered questions like in the above post by me...

[hks786]

Can any Christian brothers help me with my unanswered questions?

[UncleWede]

That is EXACTLY the opposite of the understanding you seem to project on the Christian beleif that we think Jesus died for our sins. The "Then why are you worried about sinning, your sins were wiped by Jesus?" He did NOT wipe out our sins, but won the right AS A HUMAN to forgive sins, and those that are forgiven by his grace never existed. It's a slight modification on the old saying that I use myself: "To Forgive is human, to FORGET is divine" When he set up the apostles to act in his name, they were granted that same power to forgive sins, thereby ERASING that they ever existed.
I can forgive (I delude myself into beleiving) that my first wife had an affair, had a child by another man while we were married. But I will never forget no matter how much I still love her. It's between her and God now, and I pray that my meager amount of forgiveness will sway HIS judgement on her.
I know that WITHOUT her sin, I never would have learned as much about love as I know now, and my wonderful son never would have been brought into this world.

[UncleWede]

I think I posted that somewhere else, that there are portions of God that FAR surpass our humble understanding, and that is where FAITH begins.

[hks786]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

He did NOT wipe out our sins, but won the right AS A HUMAN to forgive sins, and those that are forgiven by his grace never existed.

Okay bro. Lets suppose he paved the way for forgiveness. Either way, it still limits God's abilities to forgive. He needs nothing to forgive us. Anyway, how can God win any rights? he has full rights of everything since he is the creator. That statement limits God's abilities.

Also, how can we say that Jesus won the right as a HUMAN and then go on to say Jesus is God? If you are human, you cannot be God. They are completely different and it starts with God being infinite and Humans being finite. I posted this in post #445 in "World without mass religion":

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=445

[hks786]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

I think I posted that somewhere else, that there are portions of God that FAR surpass our humble understanding, and that is where FAITH begins.

Faith must be based on something. How can you base it on nothing? If that is the case, how can you tell me to embrace Christ instead of Hinduism? Also, it is only to easy to say that we cannot understand the "mysteries of God". So by admitting we dont understand them, how can we believe it?

What I'm really trying to say is that how can you base faith on something you cannot be sure of OR understand?

[hks786]

I gotta go. I might check the forum later or tomorrow. Take care bro...

[UncleWede]

I guess we are not getting to teh meaning of FAITH. IT is a beleif without proof, despite what others may say, what things may look like.

Do you beleive that you know everything about all the rules that Allah has given? If so, then you presume yourself a god and equal with him.

And now we're back to who created god . . . again, a stretch that my mind can't make me understand, but my heart and FAITH tell me I need not understand to bear witness to God's love and saving grace.

[UncleWede]

Webster online lists faith (along with the basic religious context) as "firm belief in something for which there is no proof "

[enfield]

Delusion: "A fixed firm belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact."

http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-R.../dp/0618680004

[NaTuReB0Y]

Where are the the descendants of Jesus Christ........have them respond.

I thought he was married and had kids..........