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      12-25-2007, 06:15 AM   #89
OzCarfreak
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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
And track cars are terrible for the street What's your point?

Other than Porsche, no other company makes a car that is at home on both the track and the street.

It is fine to debate whether M owners track their car or not but neither one of us has the data to firm up a real number but your claims of 1 / 100 are absurd.

Just admit the M3 is a great all-round package that is great for street and occasional track use. Much better than the C63 or the RS4.
you are such a cock tbone, what a waste of space
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      12-25-2007, 07:32 AM   #90
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Well, judging by recent posts, he's a perfect BMW driver then!!

Seriously though, guys, let's try to keep things on a more friendly level. We all have differing opinions, but there really is no reason to let this thread degenerate into petty insults...
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      12-25-2007, 07:41 AM   #91
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Cocks are everywhere and drive all kind of vehicle. When is the last time you try to pass someone and the person speeds up to close the gap but has a mile of clear lane in front of him? I meet people like this everyday and I don't speed or tailgate. Most of them don't drive BMWs.

BMW does seem to attract more cocks though. Just the other day, on a light traffic day in Socal traffic flows around 75-80mph, and on 3 separate occasions I saw vehicle weaving in and out of traffic at triple digits. Yup they were all BMWs, two E46 and one E60.


I just ordered a BMW and I hate to wear this label.



BTW where are all the RS4 boys now?
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      12-25-2007, 08:36 AM   #92
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[quote=bobbo;1869539]
BMW does seem to attract more cocks though.
QUOTE]


its not BMW...its SoCAL
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      12-25-2007, 09:17 AM   #93
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the HONEST point of view of a MB fan

I have to make "my compliments" to this guy...This man in my opinion is simply honest and brillant in his conclusions about the duell between the C63 and the M3.And he made a perfect picture of the situation.

This man in my opinion merits our RESPECT...
you can find the full debate in MBworld.org


His opinions:

Now we have another head to head test on a race track with laptimes on a racetrack, which I prefer because it is much more objective than anybody's opinion about a car's performance. Like the previous one by Evo magazine, this confirms the fact that the E92 M3 is faster than the W204 C63 AMG by quite a significant margin when it comes to overall performance on a track. Sure, the C63 will win the drag races on the roads, but that is just one dimension of a performance car. Being faster in a straight line than the M3 is nothing that is mind-blowingly different compared to older generation C-AMG cars and M3's.

Am I dissappointed? You bet, especially with all the hype about how the C63 is SO MUCH better than all previous C-AMG cars......a car that will finally match or beat the legendary M3 at it's own game. All the glowing early reviews of the C63 were NOT head to head comparison tests. Head to head comparisons are the most valid types, because the journalists can actually compare the cars on the same roads, same track, and make more valid remarks about the cars relative to each other. I'm sure the C63 is a big improvement over previous C-AMG cars, but it seems the E92 M3 has also upped its game significantly over the previous M3.

The "more practical" benefits of the C63 over the M3 coupe are irrelevant. Remember that there will be a E90 M3 sedan, and there will be a dual clutch manual gearbox that will be available in the near future. So you will get 4 doors, and a sweet smooth shifting transmission that can perform perfectly like a automatic transmission for those rush hour city drives, while offering lightning quick manual shifts for fun drives on the racetrack or empty roads. You will still get the superior BMW steering, and the superior driving "feel" for the road. If you don't like the BMW 3 series looks, fine, but that is not the point here.

Anyways, previous C-AMG cars have ALWAYS been better suited as road cars than previous M3's........less loud, less harsh, less bumpy, more room, etc, etc,. But now the C63 has become the more harsh riding of the two, while the M3's adjustable suspension is more comfortable on bumpy roads.......but the M3 STILL kills the C63 on the track, despite the C63 being much quicker in a straight line.

I had high hopes for the C63 in taking on the M3 at the track, because that was always the criticism of previous C-AMG cars......their inferiority when it came to handling and a sense of driver involvement. The C36, C43, and C32 were all well short of the M3's that they competed against with regards to laptimes. The C55 finally came within very close striking distance with regards to laptimes compared to the E46 M3, yet the C55 maintained its superiority as a daily driver/road car. Now, it seems the gap has again widened significantly between the E92 M3 and C63 on the track.......and the C63 has become less comfortable as a daily driver at the same time.

So far, both Motortrend and C&D from North America pick the M3 over the C63 in head to head comparison tests. I await Road & Track's opinion.

And I agree that most C-AMG drivers, and even most M3 drivers never take their car to the track. But this is no different than before as well. Other than a few of us who do track our cars, all of these car mag opinions and objective test data really is for bragging rights. The acceleration times may be relevant for those who do drag race on the streets. But these "losses" to the M3 in magazine comparision tests are just bad press for MB and AMG (and for owners of C-AMG cars), and more ammo for the egos of M3 owners.

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      12-25-2007, 09:50 AM   #94
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thanks savage. its nice getting an objective opinion
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      12-25-2007, 11:18 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ynotony View Post
"Cock" as they use it has no direct synonym in the states, but is pretty well defined with the following words:

tool, idiot, loser, prick, ass, yuppie, poser.... anyone care to add to this list?

That pretty much sums up most modern M3 owners. And everyone else that buys one has to unfortunately live with that image. Same thing applies to most 3-series owners in general because it is the cheap entry level BMW, but it is a small price to pay I feel.
The most direct translation of a "cock" in the English language is a "penis" - basically they think BMW drivers are wankers - that said in the UK Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini drivers are also all regarded as wankers so we in good company.
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      12-25-2007, 12:27 PM   #96
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Cocks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giles View Post
The most direct translation of a "cock" in the English language is a "penis" - basically they think BMW drivers are wankers - that said in the UK Ferrari, Porsche and Lamborghini drivers are also all regarded as wankers so we in good company.
This does not 'translate' well in the U.S. (no, I'm not American) where people who are successful and own nicer things are often esteemed (provided they are not overly full of themselves).

But in the UK, Oz etc a successful person is often instantly judged to be a "tosser", "wanker" or "cock". It's plain juvenile envy, and does not reflect well on the person making these snap judgements.

Aussies & Poms: get over it!! Some people are smarter and do better than others and like to own nice things .... which does not give them the right to be arrogant arseholes about it (and yes, oft times they have had a leg-up, better education or birthright ...)
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      12-25-2007, 01:08 PM   #97
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you are such a cock tbone, what a waste of space

Thank you noob.

What don't you add value to this thread and post a pic of your sister.
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      12-25-2007, 01:54 PM   #98
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Thank you noob.

What don't you add value to this thread and post a pic of your sister.
+1
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      12-25-2007, 01:59 PM   #99
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Guys guys guys....

It is very hard to explain humour/scarcasm from a British and Australian perspective compared to a US one.

To me, the whole cock thing is just a form of humour, jest, British and Aussie humour is very different from that in the US, I am quite happy to laugh at being called a "cock" when driving my M3, it is not meant in a malicious way.

Our humour is not better, just different Very different sometimes.

There is nothing better than looking at the faces of Americans watching "Kath and Kim" which is often part of the in-flight entertainment on Qantas flights. Those who know Kath and Kim will understand
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      12-25-2007, 02:03 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by savage.ulm1 View Post
I have to make "my compliments" to this guy...This man in my opinion is simply honest and brillant in his conclusions about the duell between the C63 and the M3.And he made a perfect picture of the situation.

This man in my opinion merits our RESPECT...
you can find the full debate in MBworld.org


His opinions:

...
wow, i had no idea MB enthusiasts were so logical, fact-based, and not all fanboys like some 'other' car cultures.. i guess that's why we didn't have a rash of them come on the board saying the c63 will murder the M3 blah blah blah like the Audi owners did. big for that post, thanks savage!

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BTW where are all the RS4 boys now?
i was just wondering the same thing
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      12-25-2007, 03:27 PM   #101
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BTW, when Gustav runs the C63 vs. the M3 in the summer, I wouldn't be surprised if the M3 catches up to the MB.

Also....has ANYONE seen the RS4 win any race, drag or road course against any car in its class???



RS4 = SLOW
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      12-25-2007, 03:40 PM   #102
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Quote:
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BTW, when Gustav runs the C63 vs. the M3 in the summer, I wouldn't be surprised if the M3 catches up to the MB.

Also....has ANYONE seen the RS4 win any race, drag or road course against any car in its class???



RS4 = SLOW
+10

I have yet to see the RS4 or S4 win anything. The S5 barely made it to 8:26 around the Ring with Mischelin Pilot Sport tires, while the 335 didn't even have a sport package and did it in the same time.

The only way the RS/S can be faster is if the competition is DUI or it's snowing.
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      12-25-2007, 04:33 PM   #103
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Thanks for that quote savage. That guy is right on.
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      12-25-2007, 06:38 PM   #104
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Quote:
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BTW, when Gustav runs the C63 vs. the M3 in the summer, I wouldn't be surprised if the M3 catches up to the MB.
I would bet that the M3 even with M-DCT won't ever catch up to the C63 AMG in a drag. Dyno results have shown a nearly identical motor at very close to 500 hp. This number is consistent with simulation using a similar hp level for the C63 AMG. I'd say the thing is clearly under-rated. See my entire agrument in gory detail here.
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      12-25-2007, 08:02 PM   #105
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Awesome videos... awesome discussion...

Savage... your post was also awesome!

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      12-25-2007, 10:03 PM   #106
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I would bet that the M3 even with M-DCT won't ever catch up to the C63 AMG in a drag. Dyno results have shown a nearly identical motor at very close to 500 hp. This number is consistent with simulation using a similar hp level for the C63 AMG. I'd say the thing is clearly under-rated. See my entire agrument in gory detail here.

I definitely want to see the race. No way MB made the baby benz as fast as the E / CL 63s and I think the M3 with DCT could make a run at those cars at high speeds.
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      12-25-2007, 10:28 PM   #107
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What a waste of a M car.... I have never even met a M car owner who won't at least lie to say that he has made it out on the racetrack.
yeah. shame on any M owner who hasn't taken it on the track at least once! sell it and get a frigging lexus already!
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      12-25-2007, 11:00 PM   #108
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yeah. shame on any M owner who hasn't taken it on the track at least once! sell it and get a frigging lexus already!

Hallelujah.....
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      12-26-2007, 01:47 AM   #109
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Hallelujah.....
+1. Although I do understand why folks want to buy an M and never track it. Heck many even buy the M and never take it for Sunday afternoon romps through their local woods, canyons, twisities, etc. I don't agree with the waste nor is it my way of doing things. The car is really designed and finely engineered, pretty much from the ground up, for performance in these situations and it NEVER gets used. It really is a shame. The same is absolutely true for a great variety of cars with fantastic handling as well.
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      12-26-2007, 02:14 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voltigeur View Post
This does not 'translate' well in the U.S. (no, I'm not American) where people who are successful and own nicer things are often esteemed (provided they are not overly full of themselves).

But in the UK, Oz etc a successful person is often instantly judged to be a "tosser", "wanker" or "cock". It's plain juvenile envy, and does not reflect well on the person making these snap judgements.

Aussies & Poms: get over it!! Some people are smarter and do better than others and like to own nice things .... which does not give them the right to be arrogant arseholes about it (and yes, oft times they have had a leg-up, better education or birthright ...)
Fully agree. The animosity towards success in Australia is oddly both typically Australian and un-Australian. I find it churlish and embarassing, except when directed towards corporate crooks (who will presumably surface again now we have a Labour Government). The American attitude is far more healthy, but it doesn't matter where you are, arrogant pricks and social climbing braggers deserve little respect.
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