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      12-18-2007, 04:20 PM   #45
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I think most Christians today who are quick to label Mormons as not Christian generally overlook the fact that the earliest followers of Jesus would probably not qualify under their definition of "Christian," either.
Which earliest followers would that be? Could you name them or describe them? Why would they not qualify as Christian according to "my" narrow definition? Why would they count as Christian according to your broad definition?
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      12-18-2007, 04:50 PM   #46
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You need to read all the post, and let the words sink in .... not just the ones you like!

When Mitt Romney's father ran for the presidency 40 years ago, his Mormonism was not an issue. When Mo Udall was a major challenger for the Democratic nomination in 1976, his religion was so irrelevant that today most people don't even remember that Udall was a Mormon.

Five members of the Senate are Mormon. Are there any intimations that the Mormonism of Harry Reid, Orrin Hatch, Gordon Smith, Michael Crapo or Robert Bennett corrupts, distorts or in any way diminishes their ability to perform their constitutional duties?
Actually, I don't think his being a Mormon is a real problem with regard to the job itself.
Let's not forget the idiot Bill Clinton was a Baptist.

Heck ya never know I might vote for Romney.
But that doesn't change the errors in Mormon doctrine.

What I see as a problem is your insults! Calling people freaks and telling them to pull their heads out of their azzes is a problem.
Discussing doctrines and disagreeing about the Bible is fine, but you need to stop attacking members.
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      12-18-2007, 05:11 PM   #47
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Your statement requires the use of a very peculiar definition of Christian not supported by the dictionary or by the Bible. What people really mean, I have found, when they say that Mormons aren't Christian, is that Mormons don't believe exactly the same things that the accuser believes. There is no objective standard that says Christians must believe in the papacy or in the post-Biblical declarations of argumentative committees (Nicene Creed, for example) or in the writings of Martin Luther to be Christians. Christians are those who believe in and worship Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

So what is this so-called objective standard? If you look up the references to "Christian" in the Bible - all three - you'll find that if anything, it supports the LDS position more strongly than any other religion, for the Christians had prophets among them (Acts 11). Does your religion provide prophets among your people? No - but I'm not going to tell you that you are a liar and a hypocrite for claiming to be a Christian. You may not believe that God and Christ are separate beings as the Bible teaches (e.g., John 14:28, Acts 7:55,56; John 17), but I will not tell people that you are not a Christian for that. You may accept post-Biblical creeds from fallible mortals as authoritative, even when they contradict the Bible - but I'll still accept you as a Christian. You may not believe that we are in the physical image of God as the Bible teaches (Gen. 1:26,27 + Gen. 5:1-3, among others), but I'll still accept you as a Christian.
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      12-18-2007, 05:16 PM   #48
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But that doesn't change the errors in Mormon doctrine.
This is your opinion ... why do you think there are so many denominations of 'Christian' people? All have there own interptations of the Bible. Who's to say you are right, or the LDS is wrong?

If you would like to share your denomination and doctrine with me, I would be happy to show you contradictions in the Bible.
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      12-18-2007, 05:53 PM   #49
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This is your opinion ... why do you think there are so many denominations of 'Christian' people? All have there own interptations of the Bible. Who's to say you are right, or the LDS is wrong?

If you would like to share your denomination and doctrine with me, I would be happy to show you contradictions in the Bible.
You've got to be kidding. You can't even keep track of the contradictions in your own posts!
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      12-18-2007, 06:33 PM   #50
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You've got to be kidding. You can't even keep track of the contradictions in your own posts!


Why don't you show me where I contradicted anything .... I can see why you don't want to share your own denomination. A little afraid of humble pie?
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      12-18-2007, 06:46 PM   #51
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I can see why you don't want to share your own denomination. A little afraid of humble pie?
I realize you were addressing another here, but have at it with me... but it should probably be in a new thread. This one is about "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?" and related questions. You could start one about non-denominational Christians (which I am presently) and adherents to the Assembly of God (which I gravitate toward).
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      12-18-2007, 07:20 PM   #52
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I would be very leary of any muslim seeking the presidency.
Good example of how tolerant christians are to other religions. See other thread re presidents and atheism.
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      12-18-2007, 07:44 PM   #53
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Good example of how tolerant christians are to other religions. See other thread re presidents and atheism.
Please don't put all us Christians in the same boat .... scotty is blinded by his own hatred. He did way too many drugs growing up!!
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      12-18-2007, 07:55 PM   #54
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Good example of how tolerant christians are to other religions. See other thread re presidents and atheism.
Yes. I would be very leery. Read it in context and understand the point. Leery does not mean that it would not be possible. It does relate to strong reluctance and an abundance of caution. Just as any vote I cast, it should be the one that I feel is best representative of my point of view.

This is also how I feel about a Mormon running for president - if they believe that blacks were given their dark skin because they were neutral when it came to taking sides with either Jesus or Lucifer. If you need quotes from Mormon doctrine, it should be easy enough for me to provide them. I am also leery of a presidential candidate that may believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers. So far the argument provided for the Mormon point of view is not persuasive, but rather flip.

Are you leery of Christians running for office? Muslims? Jews? Mormons? Atheists? Perhaps this question should also be in a new thread since this thread really is about trying to understand what Mormons believe. It digressed into a discussion about whether Mormons are Christians. That certainly is part of the question, but perhaps a related topic, rather than on topic.
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      12-18-2007, 08:35 PM   #55
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the Assembly of God (which I gravitate toward).
Let's see, where to start ... Let's start with the basics ... Trinity.

Assembly of God churches accept the biblical idea of a holy Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. Confusion and mysticism has surrounded this conception of the Trinity for over a thousand years however. Some hold the view that these beings are a mystical combination of one-in-three and three-in-one (Assembly of God). Others say that God is only a spirit. Many believe that Jesus and his Father are one and the same being.

Yet, there are countless biblical scriptures wherein Jesus refers to God as his Father, as if they were two separate beings. For example,

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. (John 10:17-18)
The Savior, Jesus Christ, knows his sheep... the Father has given them to him... the Father is greater than all. (John 10:27-29)

The idea is further illustrated at the baptism of Jesus. John the baptist records that he took Jesus into the water, and after baptizing him, heard the Father speak from the heavens above, and saw the dove – the sign of the Holy Ghost. All three were simultaneously present.

But what of this other idea that they are one? Jesus says this quite plainly in John 10:30, as well other places. If we examine the scriptures we can plainly see what Jesus meant when he taught this.

In John 17, We have a prayer in which Jesus prays to his Father (which in itself is an interesting notion – especially if they are one and the same being). In verse 3 we read that it is life eternal to know “thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” Thus we see that Jesus is a being sent down to earth by God. In verse 4 Jesus speaks of the mission which his Father sent him to perform saying, “I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do”.

Later, in verses 20-23, Jesus prays for his followers. He prays “That they all might be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee...” and “that they may be one, even as we are one.” This is what the idea means. Jesus is speaking not of being physically the same creature, but of unity. He wants his followers to become unified in purpose. He and his Father are perfectly unified. They have the same goals, the same desires, the same perfections, and the same qualities. This is what Jesus also meant when he said that if people had known him, they would also have known the Father (John 8:19, 14:9). For the Son is exactly like the Father, and the Father is just like the Son (Heb 1:1-3). If you have seen one, you have seen the other. Jesus is a perfect son, always perfectly in line with his Father's desires and wishes. That is exactly what he desired for his followers to achieve.

Looks like you are wrong on this one!

I know you are going to come back with scriptures that reinforce your position. This is why there are so many denominations. Wouldn't it be nice to have other God inspired writings that would clarify many of these points? I mean, there has to be a right way and a wrong way, don't you agree?

It's been nice discussing these items, but I have more important things to attend to then worry about ones Religion.

I will close by saying, I think all people that believe in Jesus Christ are Christians …. You on the other hand think that only people that believe the way you do are Christians. Please tell me who is being the bigot??
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      12-18-2007, 09:30 PM   #56
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I will close by saying, I think all people that believe in Jesus Christ are Christians
Don't you know that the Muslims believe in Jesus? Do you consider them to be Christians?

Is it true that Mormons believe Jesus is the same stuff as men? That men can have a future essentially equal with Jesus?

What religion do you belong to? Your earlier post said that you are not a Mormon, but rather have Mormon friends.

I haven't read the rest of your post yet. I will read it and consider it, but I will respond to it only after you make a new thread and move it over there. Really, it is quite a bit off topic in this thread.
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      12-18-2007, 10:41 PM   #57
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You are a rock!! Let me hold your hand one last time.

Being a Christian means:

faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 2:36; Acts 8:36–37; Acts 10:34–43; Acts 13:32–41; Acts 16:30–34);

repentance (sorrow for rebellion against God leading to a change of heart and life) (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; Acts 17:30);

a verbal confession of faith (Acts 8:36–37 and Romans 10:9–10);

being baptized (completely submerged in water) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38); (Marck 16:16)


DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY, OR IS YOUR NARROW MIND GOING TO CLOUD YOUR JUDGEMENT??
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      12-19-2007, 12:57 AM   #58
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You are a rock!! Let me hold your hand one last time.

Being a Christian means:

faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 2:36; Acts 8:36–37; Acts 10:34–43; Acts 13:32–41; Acts 16:30–34);

repentance (sorrow for rebellion against God leading to a change of heart and life) (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; Acts 17:30);

a verbal confession of faith (Acts 8:36–37 and Romans 10:9–10);

being baptized (completely submerged in water) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38); (Marck 16:16)

DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY, OR IS YOUR NARROW MIND GOING TO CLOUD YOUR JUDGEMENT??
You are really quite rude. If the Romney campaign ever dealt with the questions I have raised with the kind of response you have had throughout this thread, they would likely not win many votes. Nonetheless, thanks for taking an interest... Yet, I don't think you have really answered any of my questions.

From these verses you listed, I take it that you are saying these are what supports your Mormon religion as Christian? I will look it over, probably tomorrow evening. You must really like the Acts of the Apostles a lot. It's a great book, but why not more diversity of sources than one other verse from Romans?

Since you haven't really answered any of my questions except with vitriol, I doubt that you will respond to this:

Here are some things that I generally regard as common to the faith of Christians. I put this list together just the other day after one of our written exchanges. I'm sure I left out some very important points of common ground, but this should do for now.
There is a significant amount of difference between denominations in the details, but all teach Jesus Christ crucified and the remission of sins. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ (who is the only begotten Son of God) and not by our works. Good works are our spiritual act of worship and will be counted to us as righteousness. Our riches are in heaven.

Jesus paid the price for our sins when he died sinless on the cross at the hands of the Romans as demanded by the Jews.

After God created Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they sinned by disobeying God after being deceived by the serpent. The price for Adam's sin was death. Since then, all have sinned except Jesus our Saviour who conquered death and hell when he rose again to leave an empty tomb.

We are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost as a public testimony that we will follow Jesus.

The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God. They have existed for all time, and will exist for all the rest of time. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He is all powerful. He created the heavens and the Earth. Nothing was created without him. There is one God. His name is Jehovah (Yahweh). There always has been, and forever will be only one God. All other gods are inventions of man and impostors.

Our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. When the book is opened in the judgement, all whose names are not written in the book of life in the judgement will be cast into the lake of fire for the rest of eternity. The saved will be purified and live in the presence of God forever in paradise.

The Holy Bible is God's revelation to man. All scripture in the Holy Bible is God breathed and is useful for instruction in the faith. The Old Testament describes the old covenant history and is a prophecy of our Saviour. The New Testament describes the new covenant and our living saviour.

I am sure there are much better and more thorough summary descriptions of what all Christian religions accept as essential to Christian faith. All of it is contained in the Holy Bible. There are no other writings that we accept as Holy Writ.

So a Christian denomination accepts all these truths. We all accept each other as adopted children of God, imperfect as we are. We welcome all as Jesus has extended his grace to all who accept it.

Some of the details in my description may not be precisely correct, but essentially accurate. I hope that helps.
Do you not subscribe to many of these concepts? If so, why?
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      12-19-2007, 04:19 AM   #59
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Thinking you may get boxed in, you won't even answer the question. I got that list from right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Christianity

You are so blinded by your own bigotry; you won't even open your eyes to the obvious!

Good Luck!
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      12-19-2007, 10:25 AM   #60
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Why don't you show me where I contradicted anything ...
You suggest that Mormonism is a Christian doctrine, yet Mormonism by definition denies the diety of Jesus Christ.
THAT IS A CONTRADICTION.
I have a Book of Mormon. Please remember I taught this, studied it for years, you have no clue. Mormonism uses a clever deceptive technique employed by other cults, they use the correct WORDS, while changing the MEANING of those words. It's kind of like agreeing with you that something is "white," while quietly re-defining the word "white" to mean black. The Mormon doctrine is actually a vast collection of euphemisms!

James Talmage, one of the Mormon authorities, clearly states: "This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person" (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40).

You suggest that Mormonism is a Christian doctrine, yet Mormonism by definition denies salvation by grace, teaching a system of works.
THAT IS A CONTRADICTION.

From probe:
The Bible's definition of grace is undeserved, unearned favor. It's a gift from God with no strings attached and no way to earn it. Apparently the Mormon definition of grace is very different, including man's efforts:

The LDS Third Article of Faith states: "We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Pearl of Great Price: Articles of Faith). (emphasis mine)

Joseph Fielding Smith explains what that last phrase means: "that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.134).

James Talmage explains: "...redemption from personal sins can only be obtained through obedience to the requirement of the Gospel, and a life of good works" (James Talmage, in A Study of the Articles of Faith).

You suggest that Mormonism is a Christian doctrine, yet Mormonism by definition teaches Jesus was a created being.
THAT IS A CONTRADICTION.

"As man now is, God once was...As God now is, man can become." Is a saying that accurately describes Mormon view of Jesus. Mormons believe that Jesus was created by God and is a "brother" to Satan. Like H.W. Armstrong, they teach divine progression. Jesus was once just a man who lived on another planet. He eventually progressed to be equal to God and came to colonize planet earth with "gods to be" or humans. Unforeseen to Christ, Satan (Jesus' brother) put a kink in this plan when he deceived Adam and Eve. Jesus was then required to die for fallen man, His creation. Jesus therefore is a model for us and one day we will be equal to God and colonize other planets too. There are millions of other planets being colonized right now in the same way in other galaxies. What makes earth's colonizing process unique is Satan's deception of Adam. Jesus is the God of planet earth. The Mormon hope is to marry, through a Mormon Temple ceremony, as many earth women as possible for eternal celestial marriage. In the resurrection all good Mormon men will call from the dead those women they married in a temple ceremony. They will then fly off to some uninhabited planet with their many polygamous wives and populate that planet."
http://www.bible.ca/su-deity-christ.htm
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      12-20-2007, 12:50 AM   #61
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You are a rock!! Let me hold your hand one last time.

Being a Christian means:

faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God (Acts 2:36; Acts 8:36–37; Acts 10:34–43; Acts 13:32–41; Acts 16:30–34);

repentance (sorrow for rebellion against God leading to a change of heart and life) (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; Acts 11:18; Acts 17:30);

a verbal confession of faith (Acts 8:36–37 and Romans 10:9–10);

being baptized (completely submerged in water) for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38); (Marck 16:16)


DO YOU SEE IT THAT WAY, OR IS YOUR NARROW MIND GOING TO CLOUD YOUR JUDGEMENT??
Here is my summary of most of these scripture references:

Mark 16:9-20
[The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.]
Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to Mary Magdalene and later to two of the disciples. The rest of the disciples didn't believe it. When Jesus appeared to all eleven disciples he rebuked them for their unbelief. Jesus told the eleven to preach the good news that Jesus has risen from the dead. Those who believe are saved and will demonstrate miracles. Those who don't believe will be condemned. Jesus went to heaven and the dsciples obeyed his command.

Acts 2:36-39
The crucified Jesus is Lord and Christ. Repent and be baptized. Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Others will be called, too.

Acts 3:19
Acts 5:31

Acts 8:36-38
Phillip baptized a eunuch.

Acts 10:34-43
God doesn't favor people from just one nation [the obvious implication here being the Jews]. Jesus will judge all who have lived. Believe in Jesus and receive forgiveness.

Acts 11:1-18
The word got around that non-Jews were also hearing the gospel. Peter explained a strange vision he had, and a voice from heaven instructed him three times, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." An angel had appeared to a man and told him to find Peter who would bring the message of salvation to his household. When Peter spoke to the man and his household, the baptism with the Holy Spirit caused them to speak in tongues. So, the Christians recognized that even non-Jews may be saved.

Acts 13:32-48
Before a large crowd Paul and Barnabas preached that King David and his people died even though they served God. Jesus was raised from the dead. Jesus forgives the sins of those who believe in him and calls them righteous. Unbelievers will die. Mosaic Law cannot save you. "...all who were appointed for eternal life believed."

Acts 16:30-34
[After the jail was damaged by the earthquake with them in it] Paul and Silas explained to the jailer, and then his family, that if they believed in Lord Jesus Christ, they would be saved. The jailer cleaned Paul and Silas' wounds, he and his family were baptised, then everybody ate. The jailer [and his family] believed.

Acts 17:30
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      12-20-2007, 03:35 PM   #62
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Here is a real world hypothetical situation:

Suppose a man who was raised Roman Catholic stopped going to mass when he was a teen. Ten years later, he joined the LDS church. After a few years, this man married a woman who was raised LDS. This couple sealed their vows in the Mormon Temple. Together this LDS couple had three children. Five years later, the man determined that his Mormon faith was not for him. He went back to his roots in the Roman Catholic church rededicating his life to serving as a Catholic.

How should the Mormon wife of the Roman Catholic man treat her situation?
Will she be counseled by the Mormon church?
Does she lose something in her Mormon ascension(?) if she stays with her husband?
Would the Mormon church advise her to divorce and marry another Mormon?
Would the Mormon church advise her to stay with her husband?
Would the Mormon church advise her to join her husband in Roman Catholicism?

What else can you share about dealing with this hypothetical situation?
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      12-20-2007, 07:47 PM   #63
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If Mrs. Clinton were made up by a Hollywood makeup artist to have dark skin, she would still be white through and through. That also goes for her husband. No amount of claiming to be black will change the truth. If you ain't, you ain't. Yet, if she wore that makeup long enough, acted like she was black, and told everyone she was black often enough, she would start being called black. Eventually she would believe she were black and others might even believe it. But nothing will change the fact that she is not black.

Likewise, if Mormonism is not a Christian religion, no amount of claiming that it is will change that.
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      12-29-2007, 04:27 PM   #64
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I disagree with much of what these clowns said, but they likely do represent the attitude the left-wing pop media and the Democrats would take toward Romney if he were the Republican nominee.

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Last edited by scottwww; 01-01-2008 at 10:29 PM.
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      01-04-2008, 12:06 PM   #65
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Leave a book, a gun, and a sword in an unoccupied room = no problem.

Add people and stir = shenanigans.
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      01-04-2008, 12:29 PM   #66
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You realize religion is all lies and myth created first to answer the unknown, then reinforced to control the masses, right?

You realize that Judeo-Christianity is really an adaptation of pagan mediterranean religions from both Greco-Roman and Egyptian settlements, right?

If you follow the texts precisely, Lucifer was cast down way before Jesus was in the pciture (many thousands of years according to the old Testament.)

Either way, there is such substantial proof at this point that Jesus never existed, it's moot. Jesus as we know it couldn't be Satan's brother, because every single major historian failed to document it. (Hopefully someone brings up the gospels now, then I can really get going. ) The white, blond haired Jesus is a second and third century adaptation of an old testament character used by the Roman empire to control the civilized empire. The problem is, Jesus would have had to be dark skinned, dark haired and likely Syrian or even Egyptian to fit the New Testament's profile.

Religion is a scam.
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