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      12-24-2007, 04:55 AM   #221
swamp2
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General consensus at GTforums.com seems to be at least $10k-$20k over MSRP. That means a $80k-$90k car. See thread here. Of course a huge range of mark ups are mentioned, from $5k-$60k (yes $60k over MSRP). Many direct quotes from dealers in the $20k over MSRP range referenced there as well. It is simple supply and demand. You can not offer a car of this caliber at this cost in these quantities. Here is the obvious conclusion:

If Nissan really does limit production as they say you won't be getting one of these anytime soon anywhere near MSRP.

I suspect the 1500 cars per year is total BS which should allow prices still over, but closer to MSRP. It is not a super car at half the price (as per Nissan execs quotes) if the Z06 can be had for $5-$10k under MSRP.

Anyone here talk directly and seriously to a Nissan US dealer yet?
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      12-24-2007, 09:21 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
..Still a bit slower than the impressive Edmunds results but definitely in the range of quoted/estimated figures. FYI the fake RWD GT-R could only muster 60 in 4.0 and 1/4 in 12.2. Then bumping the hp and tq in unison to get to numbers like Edmunds reported I "only" need +25 hp/+25 tq (which is sizeable but only 5%) to get to:

0-60: 3.3
0-100: 8.0
1/4: 11.6
trap: 119
top: 202
...
The Edmunds numbers were done in an environment that seems to closely approximate the old SAE (gross) Standard Day conditions (abandoned in 1971), while everybody uses the SAE (net) Standard Day numbers for ratings today. The difference is almost exactly 5% in terms of power.

What're the odds?

Bruce

PS - Merry Christmas, everybody!
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      12-24-2007, 09:45 AM   #223
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Anyone here talk directly and seriously to a Nissan US dealer yet?
Yes, I had purchased a Nissan Frontier truck for my business from a Nissan dealer with the caveat being I'd be the first one contacted about the GT-R. This was about 1 1/2 to 2 years ago, right after Ghosn announced it would be marketed as a Nissan. Too bad, I have great contacts at a couple of Infiniti dealers who until then were assumed to be getting the GT-R.

Believe it or don't, they called in late November. They said they were allocated 2 for 2008 (which according to my sources was not correct, they do not know their allocations yet). They told me the first one was spoken for, but I could come down and put a deposit down for the second. I asked, "At MSRP?"...The salesperson said no right of first refusal at market price. I said I won't put a deposit down on a car at $20K over MSRP and he said he expects 1/2 of that. I told him to call me when they have a spot at MSRP and I'd be down with a deposit that day.

I've been planning on late 2008-2009 anyway... I really have NO complaints with my 335i. I think the consensus on the GT-R forums I frequent is it will be that time frame before MSRP GT-R's become available, and with all the new technologies in it, I think giving it a year might be a good thing anyway.
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      12-24-2007, 11:09 AM   #224
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Swamp,

The quotes below are from your original thread starter. You make reference to Nissan's yet to be released GT-R.

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If the car really had that good of a driver and tires as good as I expect they are the time is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SPECIAL.
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Talk about dishonest and over-hyped...
^Fan boy or Scientist? You have also proven yourself to be a good scientist. The problem there in lies in the fact that despite your good intentions, you can't avoid losing some of your scientific credibility when talking the M3, simply because of your worship like affection for it. By the way, I love your Sagan quote about truth > ego.

I know that you will buy the M3 no matter how it performs, how BMW treats you as a customer or what the competition brings to the table as far as performance or packaging. You have made yourself clear....and you will be buying a great car. My enthusiam for the M3 is once again gaining momentum. And in no small part, thanks to you.

Maybe you are incapable of really believing you are wrong, particularly when it comes to discussing the M3. You take great pride in telling others that you are right and telling those same people they are wrong. I also know that in doing so you believe it builds your status on this forum. Sadly, human nature proves this to be true. I would also say that many times you are absolutely right and others have been dead wrong, specifically, me.

You are right when you say you are an excellent contributor to the forum. There are some things that you bring to the table that no one else can. Your simulation work is exceptional, despite the fact that I like to hassle you about it.

Swamp, you are one of my favorite forum members as proven by my "meta" responses to you over the past year. I enjoy the debate and always learn something new from you. I think we all need to remind ourselves that we are all fan boys and passsionate about cars in one form or another. That is why we spend way too much time on this forum. Hopefully, though I am not overly optimistic, BMW will provide it's fan base with some Christmas spirit, by lifting us from the chains of bondage with the imminent release if U.S. specs and pricing.

Swamp, best wishes to you and your family during the holiday season and beyond. 2008 looks like it is gearing up to be a really exciting year for hard core, high reving motor heads. It really is the best of times.

Last edited by ruff; 12-24-2007 at 11:35 AM.
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      12-24-2007, 12:20 PM   #225
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Merry X-mas to everyone.
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      12-25-2007, 02:44 AM   #226
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[quote=swamp2;1866232]General consensus at GTforums.com seems to be at least $10k-$20k over MSRP. That means a $80k-$90k car. See thread here. Of course a huge range of mark ups are mentioned, from $5k-$60k (yes $60k over MSRP). Many direct quotes from dealers in the $20k over MSRP range referenced there as well. QUOTE]

On that board and elsewhere, there is rumors of Nissan taking action against dealers that are selling above the MSRP. Hopefully this is true and the stealers will have to be more reasonable.
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      12-25-2007, 02:54 AM   #227
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I just looked at several different Japanese magazine articles on the GT-R. The numbers look consistent. All the numbers I saw were on the dynopack dyno and it seems to make 480-485 ps and 59-60 kg/m. Hard to interpret the numbers in terms of drivetrain losses... as always. Especially with eddy current dynos since you can calibrate it to a number of different weights.

I think that testing were done on a dynopack because Dynojets are not that popular here and the older dyno dynamics and Bosch dyno have a bit of problems with high power 4WD cars.

I did see a dyno for a rear exhaust which added 26 ps.
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      12-25-2007, 04:16 AM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruff View Post
Swamp,

The quotes below are from your original thread starter. You make reference to Nissan's yet to be released GT-R.





^Fan boy or Scientist? You have also proven yourself to be a good scientist. The problem there in lies in the fact that despite your good intentions, you can't avoid losing some of your scientific credibility when talking the M3, simply because of your worship like affection for it. By the way, I love your Sagan quote about truth > ego.

I know that you will buy the M3 no matter how it performs, how BMW treats you as a customer or what the competition brings to the table as far as performance or packaging. You have made yourself clear....and you will be buying a great car. My enthusiam for the M3 is once again gaining momentum. And in no small part, thanks to you.

Maybe you are incapable of really believing you are wrong, particularly when it comes to discussing the M3. You take great pride in telling others that you are right and telling those same people they are wrong. I also know that in doing so you believe it builds your status on this forum. Sadly, human nature proves this to be true. I would also say that many times you are absolutely right and others have been dead wrong, specifically, me.

You are right when you say you are an excellent contributor to the forum. There are some things that you bring to the table that no one else can. Your simulation work is exceptional, despite the fact that I like to hassle you about it.

Swamp, you are one of my favorite forum members as proven by my "meta" responses to you over the past year. I enjoy the debate and always learn something new from you. I think we all need to remind ourselves that we are all fan boys and passsionate about cars in one form or another. That is why we spend way too much time on this forum. Hopefully, though I am not overly optimistic, BMW will provide it's fan base with some Christmas spirit, by lifting us from the chains of bondage with the imminent release if U.S. specs and pricing.

Swamp, best wishes to you and your family during the holiday season and beyond. 2008 looks like it is gearing up to be a really exciting year for hard core, high reving motor heads. It really is the best of times.
I guess I find it quite possible to distinguish between fan and fan boy. A great M fan I will admit, however, I will never accept the title of fan boy. It is sort of like saying hey ruff, you are a Ben and Jerrys fanboy. I will and clearly have leaned too heavily in the direction of skepticism thus far in regards to the GT-R. Again all it really comes down to is that extraordinary claims do indeed require extraordinary evidence. If BMWs and other journalists numbers looked as suspicious, I'd take nearly the same appoach. Furthermore, I don't think my small obsession with this forum nor passion for M cars can be aptly described as anything close to a "worship like affection". How many time do I have to list all of my criticisms of the car, BMW and this release?

I think you are correct that it is highly likely I will buy a M3. You really do make it sound like this is further evidence of my being a fanboy. For one I won't do it without driving one myself and for two what is so terribly bad about intent with the information we know at this point in time? Your comments about regardless of how it performs and about what the competition will offer seem mostly irrelevant given what we know today. We all know the performance of both the M3 and most of the performance of its close competitors.

I too enjoy your posts as well. I guess neither of us would reply back and forth as much as we do if we thought the other was some unintelligent troll. I've said it once and will say it again - your balance, skepticism and the quality of your prose is both valuable and refreshing here.

Thanks much for the kind words and wishes in your closing. Your post certainly represents a very gracious ending of a too long and too heated debate and discussion.

Happy Holidays to you and yours. Be safe, drive well and all the best for the new year and for whatever exciting new car may lie in your future.
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