Alcon BBK via Bimmerworld or AP Racing Pro 5000R?

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I've had PFC, the BimmerWorld-Alcon and the AP Radicals. PFC is top shelf. The fattest pads which also happen to be cheapest. We still have one full BBK and a second front-only PFC. It's good enough that we spent a long time in Solidworks and 3D printing to get front brackets built for our F8X as PFC does not officially support the F. The Z54/45 kit properly sends bias to the rear of the car. 28mm front, 20mm rear pad.
We continue to get this serviced without issues, at least so far.

Always wanted the PFC BBK but never pulled the trigger. Gorgeous.
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1372376
.

[reidetailing]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

We've had PFC, the BimmerWorld-Alcon and the AP Radical rear

PFC is top shelf. The fattest pads which also happen to be cheapest. We still have one full BBK and a second front-only PFC. It's good enough that we spent a long time in Solidworks and 3D printing to get front brackets built for our F8X as PFC does not officially support the F.
The Z54/45 kit properly sends bias to the rear of the car. 28mm front, 20mm rear pad.
We continue to get this serviced without issues, at least so far. We've been hearing about gloom and doom for years regarding PFC service, so far everything is in stock at BimmerWorld and we're yet to have any kind of issue, whether it's rotors, hats, pads or rebuild kits for the pistons/seals.
The PFC rotors are cast in the US and are cut without using lubricating oil. Massive cost difference but that avoids the rotor from absorbing oil which will bleed out during use.
Front and rear pads come out completely flat with no taper despite being the fattest pads of all.

The Bimmerworld-Alcon kit is the new hotness. We've run it for two seasons. It has a 36mm front rotor (vs 32-34mm PFC/AP) and that makes a huge difference in durability and heat dissipation/thermal stability.
25mm front, 23mm rear. It sends bias to the rear of the car.
A 36mm front rotor cannot be understood properly until you hold one in your hands. It is absolutely insane. So far we have never managed to crack one all the way through. 50% more durability than the PFC rotor which was otherwise the reigning champion.
Excellent pad options as well. The front uses the same pad shape as the AP big kit and has all the newer PFC compounds.
The front and rear rotors always come prebedded, a very nice plus

The AP Radical seems to get a lot of love here. We are not among the fans. They were on the car four events and we quickly tired of pad taper making the rear 17mm pad even less effective than it would be otherwise as well as rotor life that seemed more like a stock brake than a BBK. I heard they redesigned them, but we clearly remember their sales guy telling us all how their rotors were vastly superior to the PFC rotor, then we run them, they last half of a PFC rotor and they eventually get redesigned. I abhor marketing bullshit when it comes to track stuff. The Turner M4 GT4 cars have Girodisc rotor conversions added to the spec AP kit and I'm not one bit surprised.
We still have the two sets of rear pads we ran that are tapered enough to build a triangle when you stack them. When you have a 17mm pad to begin with and then you get 5mm of taper, you're screwed.
The kit was sold after four events and we committed to building a rear PFC adapter, then BimmerWorld launched the Alcons and we went to that instead.


Possible reasons for our lackluster experience with APs:
-We run full weight cars with no aero and punish the brakes more than people running 6 seconds faster that are lightened and have aero. And we do that for an hour at a time as we double-track cars. This is likely the most savage use of a brake kit.
-Not many people here go through one 25-28mm pad in one weekend, but we do. Every weekend. A few times we have gone through one 28-25mm pad in a single day!
-We came from a PFC kit and clearly felt the downgrade with the AP. I'm sure if one comes from stock then APs feel pretty awesome
-My brother and I are both mechanical engineers with grad degrees in engineering as well. We understand the theory behind the cool shape of the Radical, but the results need to be there. They are not. It is clear to us that in the pursuit of a sexy shape they cut out too much material and compromised rigidity. You see this for example where the PFC has three cross-bolts per side but the AP Radical has two: where the third one would go there is a nice cutout to lighten the caliper.



As luck would have it, our two sets of nickel plated BW-Alcons won't be ready until June so... GTS1 has stock calipers with Giro rotors and GTS2 has the PFC front and AP rear. Yes, we bought our old AP kit back and will use it for the first half of the season.

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread so far.

SYT, thank-you very much for your detailed feedback and experience with several of the top BBKs for the E9X M3 platform.

Funny you mention the nickel-plated Alcons from Bimmerworld...I was on the phone w/one of the Bimmerworld sales reps who had actually mentioned that this was coming in the undetermined future.

1) If I may ask, what's the price point on the nickel-plated Alcon offering compared to the regular offering from Bimmerworld?
2) Do you have any photos of them?


Thanks,
Alex

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by reidetailing

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread so far.

SYT, thank-you very much for your detailed feedback and experience with several of the top BBKs for the E9X M3 platform.

Funny you mention the nickel-plated Alcons from Bimmerworld...I was on the phone w/one of the Bimmerworld sales reps who had actually mentioned that this was coming in the undetermined future.

1) If I may ask, what's the price point on the nickel-plated Alcon offering compared to the regular offering from Bimmerworld?
2) Do you have any photos of them?


Thanks,
Alex

All the motorsports BBKs are nickel plated. I once saw a PFC Z54 kit that was nickel plated and then found out it wasn't something that could be retrofitted/done after the fact.
Every time I see a 991 Cup car or a Cayman CS that comes with a nickel plated PFC kit I'm reminded how good that finish looks.

When the BW-Alcons came out they were only anodized so that's what we got. Very durable finish but a little plain. That's what we got for our CS.

When GTS1 and GTS2 came into the picture we felt we had to have the nickel plated calipers. BImmerWorld said they didn't exist but as we were buying two kits and kept pestering them we got them to place a larger order of these. The timeline leaves us in June! No idea if there are other kits from that order that are not spoken for.

They were ~600 more per axle than the anodized. For me, this seems like a no-brainer given the cost of any of these brake kits.

No photos because they don't exist yet, but I'll try to attach one of another Alcon kit to give you an idea.

[DRLane]

The new Harrop forged monoblock nickel BBK looks compelling.

[evilspiritM3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

All the motorsports BBKs are nickel plated. I once saw a PFC Z54 kit that was nickel plated and then found out it wasn't something that could be retrofitted/done after the fact.
Every time I see a 991 Cup car or a Cayman CS that comes with a nickel plated PFC kit I'm reminded how good that finish looks.

When the BW-Alcons came out they were only anodized so that's what we got. Very durable finish but a little plain. That's what we got for our CS.

When GTS1 and GTS2 came into the picture we felt we had to have the nickel plated calipers. BImmerWorld said they didn't exist but as we were buying two kits and kept pestering them we got them to place a larger order of these. The timeline leaves us in June! No idea if there are other kits from that order that are not spoken for.

They were ~600 more per axle than the anodized. For me, this seems like a no-brainer given the cost of any of these brake kits.

No photos because they don't exist yet, but I'll try to attach one of another Alcon kit to give you an idea.

Oh man, I wonder if I could send my Alcon's back to BW for the plating.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by evilspiritM3

Oh man, I wonder if I could send my Alcon's back to BW for the plating.

I wish. We sold the set we had for the CS due to this.

Looking back we should have kept the CS alcons until we got the plated ones!

[tsk94]

Had the PFC on our E92 and it was great, as expected. Had the E36 PFC before so had a good idea of what to expect on the E92.

Got the Alcon kit for our M4 now, haven't driven with it yet but it looks great. Much fancier then the PFC, hopefully it performs as well. Never used the AP kits, but some on here have used it with good success.

[///Mobbin]

Nickel plated Alcons oh my! Might finally get me to move on from my Stoptechs.

[Envyscorpio]

Originally Posted by reidetailing

Hey everyone,


Looking to get some feedback regarding which is a better performing BBK setup.

I’m sure I can’t go wrong with either, but any feedback is welcome.

Option 1: AP Racing Pro 5000R (Front CP9660 372mm and Rear CP5040 340mm BBK)

Option 2: Alcon CR6420 380mm front and Alcon CAR4949 355mm rear BBK.


Sincerely,
Alex

I have tried all of above from track friends and went with Brembo GTS + Re10 pads combo.

Probably the best decision I have ever made. Modulation is great and the GTS kit lasted me 15 DEs before having to change front rotors with some pad life left.

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

We've had PFC, the BimmerWorld-Alcon and the AP Radical rear

PFC is top shelf. The fattest pads which also happen to be cheapest. We still have one full BBK and a second front-only PFC. It's good enough that we spent a long time in Solidworks and 3D printing to get front brackets built for our F8X as PFC does not officially support the F.
The Z54/45 kit properly sends bias to the rear of the car. 28mm front, 20mm rear pad.
We continue to get this serviced without issues, at least so far. We've been hearing about gloom and doom for years regarding PFC service, so far everything is in stock at BimmerWorld and we're yet to have any kind of issue, whether it's rotors, hats, pads or rebuild kits for the pistons/seals.
The PFC rotors are cast in the US and are cut without using lubricating oil. Massive cost difference but that avoids the rotor from absorbing oil which will bleed out during use.
Front and rear pads come out completely flat with no taper despite being the fattest pads of all.

The Bimmerworld-Alcon kit is the new hotness. We've run it for two seasons. It has a 36mm front rotor (vs 32-34mm PFC/AP) and that makes a huge difference in durability and heat dissipation/thermal stability.
25mm front, 23mm rear. It sends bias to the rear of the car.
A 36mm front rotor cannot be understood properly until you hold one in your hands. It is absolutely insane. So far we have never managed to crack one all the way through. 50% more durability than the PFC rotor which was otherwise the reigning champion.
Excellent pad options as well. The front uses the same pad shape as the AP big kit and has all the newer PFC compounds.
The front and rear rotors always come prebedded, a very nice plus

The AP Radical seems to get a lot of love here. We are not among the fans. They were on the car four events and we quickly tired of pad taper making the rear 17mm pad even less effective than it would be otherwise as well as rotor life that seemed more like a stock brake than a BBK. I heard they redesigned them, but we clearly remember their sales guy telling us all how their rotors were vastly superior to the PFC rotor, then we run them, they last half of a PFC rotor and they eventually get redesigned. I abhor marketing bullshit when it comes to track stuff. The Turner M4 GT4 cars have Girodisc rotor conversions added to the spec AP kit and I'm not one bit surprised.
We still have the two sets of rear pads we ran that are tapered enough to build a triangle when you stack them. When you have a 17mm pad to begin with and then you get 5mm of taper, you're screwed.
The kit was sold after four events and we committed to building a rear PFC adapter, then BimmerWorld launched the Alcons and we went to that instead.


Possible reasons for our lackluster experience with APs:
-We run full weight cars with no aero and punish the brakes more than people running 6 seconds faster that are lightened and have aero. And we do that for an hour at a time as we double-track cars. This is likely the most savage use of a brake kit.
-Not many people here go through one 25-28mm pad in one weekend, but we do. Every weekend. A few times we have gone through one 28-25mm pad in a single day!
-We came from a PFC kit and clearly felt the downgrade with the AP. I'm sure if one comes from stock then APs feel pretty awesome
-My brother and I are both mechanical engineers with grad degrees in engineering as well. We understand the theory behind the cool shape of the Radical, but the results need to be there. They are not. It is clear to us that in the pursuit of a sexy shape they cut out too much material and compromised rigidity. You see this for example where the PFC has three cross-bolts per side but the AP Radical has two: where the third one would go there is a nice cutout to lighten the caliper.



As luck would have it, our two sets of nickel plated BW-Alcons won't be ready until June so... GTS1 has stock calipers with Giro rotors and GTS2 has the PFC front and AP rear. Yes, we bought our old AP kit back and will use it for the first half of the season.

Super write up!
As of 3 weeks ago i finally received my new PFC front and rear rotors and im beyond excited because i did NOT want to get into another BBK system. BIMMERWORLD came through and i praise them!
Alcon was my other choice if i couldnt source another set of rotors to replace the current dunZo set. Everyone preaches to me about the AP system but i compared them to my PFC BBK and well.....doesnt compare.

Question, on the Rings with the front PFC rotors, you guys use a heat gun to pry them out, its a bit of a fight to loosen the locking ring set.
Thanks!

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Super write up!
As of 3 weeks ago i finally received my new PFC front and rear rotors and im beyond excited because i did NOT want to get into another BBK system. BIMMERWORLD came through and i praise them!
Alcon was my other choice if i couldnt source another set of rotors to replace the current dunZo set. Everyone preaches to me about the AP system but i compared them to my PFC BBK and well.....doesnt compare.

Question, on the Rings with the front PFC rotors, you guys use a heat gun to pry them out, its a bit of a fight to loosen the locking ring set.
Thanks!

We use two flat head screwdrivers. Never had to use a heat gun, although we also don't use these cars in winter.

Glad you got your kit! Lucky you!

[DR-JEKL]

Hey guys may I ask if anyone here has experience with using dual duty pads on their E9x's with either the project Mu club racer pads or DS2500? (my car is predominantly a street car)

My buddy reckons the Mu CR absolutely shit all over the DS2500 in every regard (cold braking, better pedal feel etc etc) but I was surprised when my Mu dealer recommended the DS2500 over his Mu pads

[DrFerry]

PFC Kit is just WOW!
.

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by DR-JEKL

Hey guys may I ask if anyone here has experience with using dual duty pads on their E9x's with either the project Mu club racer pads or DS2500? (my car is predominantly a street car)

My buddy reckons the Mu CR absolutely shit all over the DS2500 in every regard (cold braking, better pedal feel etc etc) but I was surprised when my Mu dealer recommended the DS2500 over his Mu pads

Can't compare against Project Mu but DS2500 is a street pad that can pinch hit in a tight situation for a track day. I went through my rear ds2500 in 3ish days. This is on full AP kit and ds1.11 on the fronts.

[XCUSE_M3]

Anyone with the AP kit ever change to a PFC or stop tech rotor or just any other rotor. I always have a issue with the rear of the rotor cracking inside to the bearing and this is with the J-hooks. Looking for something that will last longer. Race teams that run ap's seem to always have a different rotor other then the j-hooks just not sure what the run.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by XCUSE_M3

Anyone with the AP kit ever change to a PFC or stop tech rotor or just any other rotor. I always have a issue with the rear of the rotor cracking inside to the bearing and this is with the J-hooks. Looking for something that will last longer. Race teams that run ap's seem to always have a different rotor other then the j-hooks just not sure what the run.

the Turner cars run Girodisc rotors on the APs

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

the Turner cars run Girodisc rotors on the APs

Sounds like a worthy alternative serious track combo (AP Racing BBK + Girodisc) as the PFC BBK kits are becoming scarcer and scarcer. I admit PFC BBK is the King of E9X BBK but a second best option is worth knowing about. Thanks for the information from someone who really puts the products to the test on track. Hope the stroker is holdin' up..

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Sounds like a worthy alternative serious track combo (AP Racing BBK + Girodisc) as the PFC BBK kits are becoming scarcer and scarcer. I admit PFC BBK is the King of E9X BBK but a second best option is worth knowing about. Thanks for the information from someone who really puts the products to the test on track. Hope the stroker is holdin' up..

AP Racing is as significant of a player in professional motorsports as anyone else. If you want a 36mm compatible disk for the Radicals just order them. It will be as effective as anything by PFC, Alcon, or giro. You can get different J hook configs, curved slots, plain face, etc

Viable option:
https://apracing.com/cdn/drawings/cp5772-6076~7cd.pdf

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by DRLane

AP Racing is as significant of a player in professional motorsports as anyone else. If you want a 36mm compatible disk for the Radicals just order them. It will be as effective as anything by PFC, Alcon, or giro. You can get different J hook configs, curved slots, plain face, etc

Viable option:
https://apracing.com/cdn/drawings/cp5772-6076~7cd.pdf

Devin, does the 2mm make that big of a difference? I run 9660 which is 372x34 (so is 9668). If you go larger on the rotor width, I'm assuming you have to run a pad with less width? Am I understanding that right?

My pads are only 18mm. I wanted the 9668 but it wouldn't fit my street wheels. May have to sort that out.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by slcook54

Devin, does the 2mm make that big of a difference? I run 9660 which is 372x34 (so is 9668). If you go larger on the rotor width, I'm assuming you have to run a pad with less width? Am I understanding that right?

My pads are only 18mm. I wanted the 9668 but it wouldn't fit my street wheels. May have to sort that out.

The 9668 which runs a 25mm pad is compatible with 36mm rotor rings. I think the extra 1mm on each side of the rotor face is considerable to the heat sink and durability and is the driving factor in the alternative kits. Sure the Alcon is also 380mm, but again if that's whT you want it's available.

I'm guessing, the emphasis on the 34mm option from Essex (also at 372 vs 375 diameter) is weight reduction. The larger and thicker disk adds unsprung weight.

[slcook54]

Originally Posted by DRLane

The 9668 which runs a 25mm pad is compatible with 36mm rotor rings. I think the extra 1mm on each side of the rotor face is considerable to the heat sink and durability and is the driving factor in the alternative kits. Sure the Alcon is also 380mm, but again if that's whT you want it's available.

I'm guessing, the emphasis on the 34mm option from Essex (also at 372 vs 375 diameter) is weight reduction. The larger and thicker disk adds unsprung weight.

But if you run the 36mm rotors when the kit is setup for 25mm pads on 34mm rotors, does that mean you have to run 23mm pads or less?

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by slcook54

But if you run the 36mm rotors when the kit is setup for 25mm pads on 34mm rotors, does that mean you have to run 23mm pads or less?

No, on 9668 with 25mm pad there is room for up to 36mm disk. Again, Essex chooses the thinner ring.