KW vs GC vs TCK

[klammer]

Originally Posted by HREM3

I'm reading more and more about people trading their sleeve kits for KW V3s

Not to KW V3's, but am thinking of turning in my Dinan stg 3 for a more competent full coilover. Have had ZERO problems with the Dinan and it's a great compromise setup (camber plates are a must to really upgrade), but just felt like I wanted more. Guess it's akin to guys constantly upgrading their blowers, some look at the 1/4 mile, some lateral g's

[bigjae1976]

I think the JRZ dampers are intriguing.

I really like the TC Kline smart design coilovers for my E46...once you get the rebound and compression settings set right, its a comfy ride and handles great! On full soft with 600/700lb springs, it was pretty bouncy. Not ricer honda bouncy but I hit my head against the headliner twice going over some bumps.

Those two options are something to consider. Or you can fall for the marketing and follow the crowd to KW.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Those two options are something to consider. Or you can fall for the marketing and follow the crowd to KW.

Can you elaborate on "falling for the marketing"? I've read so many good things about the KW V3s.

[leo95se]

Originally Posted by TC Kline Racing

OEM spring rates are 180f/550R - So the biggest jump is in the front, in our opinion, it's just right and not too firm.

Do you mean camber plates??

camber.. lol iphone auto correct!

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by HREM3

Can you elaborate on "falling for the marketing"? I've read so many good things about the KW V3s.

Its more of a vendor thing than a KW thing. Vendors throw them on an E9X M3, drive around and rave about how much better it is. Versus what? In what particular application or use? What makes it better? Then they just regurgitate literature. Same goes for many other things that are branded as superior.

I can't speak for TC Kline because I already had my mind made up when I called them. I did talk to Bimmerworld and they actually explained to me why one setup was better than another. What the different features were, what fit my service demands, etc.

I would caution you before you decide on KWs to look at your other potentially better AND cheaper options. Just sayin'...no judgements against KW.

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Its more of a vendor thing than a KW thing. Vendors throw them on an E9X M3, drive around and rave about how much better it is. Versus what? In what particular application or use? What makes it better? Then they just regurgitate literature. Same goes for many other things that are branded as superior.

I can't speak for TC Kline because I already had my mind made up when I called them. I did talk to Bimmerworld and they actually explained to me why one setup was better than another. What the different features were, what fit my service demands, etc.

I would caution you before you decide on KWs to look at your other potentially better AND cheaper options. Just sayin'...no judgements against KW.

^This x100

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Its more of a vendor thing than a KW thing. Vendors throw them on an E9X M3, drive around and rave about how much better it is. Versus what? In what particular application or use? What makes it better? Then they just regurgitate literature. Same goes for many other things that are branded as superior.

I can't speak for TC Kline because I already had my mind made up when I called them. I did talk to Bimmerworld and they actually explained to me why one setup was better than another. What the different features were, what fit my service demands, etc.

I would caution you before you decide on KWs to look at your other potentially better AND cheaper options. Just sayin'...no judgements against KW.

Well, multiple members have raved about them as well. I guess they could be brain washed by marketing literature.

Better AND Cheaper you say? I'm all ears! PM me if you don't want to deviate from the topic of this thread.

[Rapture]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Its more of a vendor thing than a KW thing. Vendors throw them on an E9X M3, drive around and rave about how much better it is. Versus what? In what particular application or use? What makes it better? Then they just regurgitate literature. Same goes for many other things that are branded as superior.

I can't speak for TC Kline because I already had my mind made up when I called them. I did talk to Bimmerworld and they actually explained to me why one setup was better than another. What the different features were, what fit my service demands, etc.

I would caution you before you decide on KWs to look at your other potentially better AND cheaper options. Just sayin'...no judgements against KW.

To be honest, I thought the same thing as yourself..... Then I got rid of my "better and cheaper option" and put on the KW V3 and can tell you, there is a HUGE difference.

I am not arguing but just letting everyone know there is a reason why so many people run the KW coilovers.

And regarding the TC Kline stuff; I personally haven't had any experience with them but they seem to be built a lot better than the Ground Control set up and appear to be on the same level as the KW Sleeve set up.

In the end, it's your money and you can spend it however you like. I made a $1000 mistake and learned from it, hopefully others will learn from my mistake, too.

[bigjae1976]

Raptor and HRE M3... Your assessments are fair and valuable. I think this discussion on coil overs is on topic.

I've found that what's on this forum is way more optimistic that reality. Many people aren't willing to rock the boat in a public thread. I agree because the forum becomes a huge pissing match. Maybe I'm the minority here but I assume a vendor is full of shit unless the can provide a coherent explanation of why their's is better or different. If they can't, then the only comparison is price.

Everyone's different. If you have a good KW dealer around the corner why not? But I'm a cheap SOB. I won't spend $000's on something I didn't research. No one could tell me why KW was better for my E46. Vorshlag and Bimmerworld made their case for JRZ, TCK, and AST. TCK intrigued me in a Bimmer mag article on the 135i. They had a unique solution to their suspension system as one example.

I'm just making the point to not believe everything on forums. I've bought and seen plenty of stuff widely recommended that ends up not living up to expectations.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'm just making the point to not believe everything on forums. I've bought and seen plenty of stuff widely recommended that ends up not living up to expectations.

I definitely see your point. I'm as skeptical as they come, which is why I haven't pulled the trigger yet. There's obvious fear of making the wrong decision.

If JRZ or AST made a coilover that was priced comparable to the KW V3s I think more people would spring for those more often.

So the V3 definitely finds itself in sort of a sweet spot with the E9x M3s.

There's also a bit of a guinea pig feel when buying AST or JRZ since it seems that not many users have them....This can be argued to coincide with resale and being able to get rid of them..

[PINHEAD]

dont need to be a guinea pig when JRZ RS dampers are known to be so amazing. They are one of the most popular dampers used in record setting time attack cars. Its the reason why many Porsche GT3s and S2k owners consider the JRZ RS one of the best dampers you can buy. There are of course better dampers but you are paying over 15k, versus 6k for JRZ dampers that are way beyond KW has to offer on a consumer level. Just because on M3 applications does not mean its a whole new setup. With the correct guidance, it would not be a problem. JRZ dampers on a Porsche GT3 are no much different in performance capabilities than JRZ dampers on M3 or S2k.

I think JRZ RS are about as good as it gets without blowing 15-20k on full race dampers.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by HREM3

I definitely see your point. I'm as skeptical as they come, which is why I haven't pulled the trigger yet. There's obvious fear of making the wrong decision.

If JRZ or AST made a coilover that was priced comparable to the KW V3s I think more people would spring for those more often.

So the V3 definitely finds itself in sort of a sweet spot with the E9x M3s.

There's also a bit of a guinea pig feel when buying AST or JRZ since it seems that not many users have them....This can be argued to coincide with resale and being able to get rid of them..

I would try and make it out to a relatively local track. That's where you see stuff in action. If not, I would call and talk to the vendors who test this stuff. I would call vendors like Bimmerworld, Turner, and TC Kline, companies who actually test this stuff against other brands. When you call a company to compare products, they should ask you a bunch of questions about you. If not, hang up and move on. When they recommend brand "A", I ask about brand "B" or "C". That way you cut through the BS. Do your research before hand on brand "B" and "C" and test the vendor. I have caught certain vendors(sponsors) BSing you back to brand "A".

Here's how my experience went for my E46. I was leaning towards the ASTs. I've heard nothing but good things about them on the forums. But after talking to a couple of vendors, I found that the TC Klines were on par in performance but had some advantages. The rear spring is unique in that it is a beehive spring which provides more spring travel because of the angle of the lower control arm to the body. Then the Koni struts had fewer long-term issues in their experience and their customers.

After narrowing my search, I called Bimmerworld. They asked me a bunch of questions and explained what they thought would fit my needs and WHY. So I bought my coilovers through Bimmerworld. Now here's my biased opinion. I really like TC Kline. They've ALWAYS answered the phone...whether its Ohio or Cali. They'll even tell you recommended settings...ride height, adjustments, etc. I don't think you can get that information from any other company directly from the company that tunes the coilover as a system.

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by PINHEAD

I think JRZ RS are about as good as it gets without blowing 15-20k on full race dampers.

Well that's also half my problem. You guys are basically talking about whats best on a track. My car gets 99.5% daily driven highway miles. I'm simply looking for a stanced look that has some sort of (even if its minimal) performance gain.

I will call bimmerworld and talk to them though, that's very good advice. Thank you!

[klammer]

I am seriously considering the JRZ's this offseason. Think they'll be on the car at the start of next season, but my season is 15-25 events and agree that it would be overkill for the OP application. Really would just get eibach springs, the e36 bumpstops, and the dinan fixed camber plates. Think that's relatively inexpensive and a true upgrade in performance. Good luck

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by klammer

I am seriously considering the JRZ's this offseason. Think they'll be on the car at the start of next season, but my season is 15-25 events and agree that it would be overkill for the OP application. Really would just get eibach springs, the e36 bumpstops, and the dinan fixed camber plates. Think that's relatively inexpensive and a true upgrade in performance. Good luck

That's exactly what I was thinking. create my own setup...

Eibach Springs: $300
Malek Shaved guides and E36 Bumpstops: $150
Dinan Camber Plates: $300
Dinan Rear upper Shock mount kit: (For rear suspension travel) $100

[TC Kline Racing]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

You dont need to mess with the caster. as far back as it goes on the plates should get you to within specs.

Just to be clear about the caster...More static caster is better than more static camber! Why? Because caster does not affect camber in a straight line. But, when you turn the wheel as you are going into a corner the camber angle becomes dynamic and increases as you turn in. So as the car leans into the corner more camber is added.

This is perfect for all cars (street & track) but really benefits those who drive on the street as well because you don't get the darting the car likes to do when you have a lot of static camber on the street.

And you are correct EdwinM3 - Once the caster is set you do not need to adjust it because of the reason above.

[TC Kline Racing]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think the JRZ dampers are intriguing.

I really like the TC Kline smart design coilovers for my E46...once you get the rebound and compression settings set right, its a comfy ride and handles great! On full soft with 600/700lb springs, it was pretty bouncy. Not ricer honda bouncy but I hit my head against the headliner twice going over some bumps.

Those two options are something to consider. Or you can fall for the marketing and follow the crowd to KW.

Thank you for the kind words bigjae1976!

Certainly you do need to turn the dampers up when running higher spring rates in order to make sure they can control the spring...hope your head has recovered

JRZ makes very nice products for sure! They are very expensive. But...the fact is that our TC Kline Racing Double Adjustable dampers are just as fast and capable as the JRZ's...for a fraction of the price!

Why you ask....Good question! All of the JRZ, Moton and similar products are made in small production runs with specially machined parts namely the housings and canisters (for remote resivior versions). Our TC Kline/Koni parts use components that are made in much higher volumes and therefore are able to offer them at a lower price.

The fact is that our D/A dampers offer one of the highest value products available when comparing:
1) Overall performance (comfort and precision) the product gives
2) Reliability
2) Lifetime warranty offered to the original owner
3) Total cost of the product

[TC Kline Racing]

Originally Posted by HREM3

Well that's also half my problem. You guys are basically talking about whats best on a track. My car gets 99.5% daily driven highway miles. I'm simply looking for a stanced look that has some sort of (even if its minimal) performance gain.

I will call bimmerworld and talk to them though, that's very good advice. Thank you!

One of the largest benefits of choosing a suspension like we offer for your application is that it offers extremely good comfort on the street AND you can turn the shocks up and adjust camber for those track days to carve up the track!
There are a few reasons that our products offer such a versitile package:
1) the special valving, 2) low (or no) pressure gas shocks, and 3) the optimum spring rates.

This gives you the ability to lower your car, get great ride comfort (yes better than stock) and improve performance substantially!

[CSanto]

Originally Posted by TC Kline Racing

One of the largest benefits of choosing a suspension like we offer for your application is that it offers extremely good comfort on the street AND you can turn the shocks up and adjust camber for those track days to carve up the track!
There are a few reasons that our products offer such a versitile package:
1) the special valving, 2) low (or no) pressure gas shocks, and 3) the optimum spring rates.

This gives you the ability to lower your car, get great ride comfort (yes better than stock) and improve performance substantially!

The application that will give me this is the smart design D/A system?

[TC Kline Racing]

Originally Posted by HREM3

The application that will give me this is the smart design D/A system?

Yes, specifically the D/A kit + camber plates. This is because the D/A has a completely different valve package than the S/A kit. Plus the ability to adjust camber and increase caster angle is huge with the plates!

Not to say the S/A isn't good but the D/A valving is a completely different level of precision.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by HREM3

Well that's also half my problem. You guys are basically talking about whats best on a track. My car gets 99.5% daily driven highway miles. I'm simply looking for a stanced look that has some sort of (even if its minimal) performance gain.

I will call bimmerworld and talk to them though, that's very good advice. Thank you!

In your case you need to do even more research because track only applications are relatively easy. More damper, more spring rate. You want something that has more capability while being more comfortable. Which is why I really like my dinan stage 3ish (I have GC plates). It gives you a nice drop without destroying the ride or handling. I question the performance gain but it is still comparably comfortable to the OEM suspension (non-EDC). IMO, you don't really need the front sways.

If you compare pricing, the KWs are a tad more than the TCK. The TCK apparently also requires a camber plate whereas I'm not sure about the KW. Makes sense to go with a camber plate if you are going with a double adjustable damper. Otherwise, why not just go with something that is height adjustable only or only springs.

[raziel5201314]

Originally Posted by Rapture

To be honest, I thought the same thing as yourself..... Then I got rid of my "better and cheaper option" and put on the KW V3 and can tell you, there is a HUGE difference.

I am not arguing but just letting everyone know there is a reason why so many people run the KW coilovers.

And regarding the TC Kline stuff; I personally haven't had any experience with them but they seem to be built a lot better than the Ground Control set up and appear to be on the same level as the KW Sleeve set up.

In the end, it's your money and you can spend it however you like. I made a $1000 mistake and learned from it, hopefully others will learn from my mistake, too.

Hi, i read your words. So, base on your experience, do you think i should forget about buying all those sleeve over kit such as kw and even tc kline? I get stuck of whether changing coilover or tc kline sleeve over kit.