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      01-29-2014, 12:00 PM   #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
You want us to start posting pics of your kit parts up?

Waiting for the Rotrex to arrive.
Atta boy, mkPOTO.
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      01-29-2014, 12:06 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
You want us to start posting pics of your kit parts up?

Waiting for the Rotrex to arrive.
haha there goes the element of surprise... yes please send them to me!
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      01-29-2014, 12:22 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by mkPOTO View Post
haha there goes the element of surprise... yes please send them to me!
I'm sending you a 105 pulley.

Should be good for 4 PSi :-)
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      01-29-2014, 01:34 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
I'm sending you a 105 pulley.

Should be good for 4 PSi :-)
yeah slowest supercharged M3!!!
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      01-29-2014, 05:20 PM   #401
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Haha, I thought that was you! All is good, family and kids are good as well, glad to see you here on M3post Brother!
Great to hear

I am in Florida now and picked up an e92 this past summer .. so the excel spreadsheet of mods has started to fillup :-)

I have pretty much everything i want picked out but

A) Do I want to go FI again
B) If so, what kit -- not going nuts like last time .. will be bolt on.
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      01-29-2014, 07:58 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Thank you so much for appreciating the quality and the FMIC setup.

I will be building up the system outside of the car to show everything together.

We have never put out huge amounts of information about out kit. Time to change that..
Definitely looking forward to a quality presentation like the ECU Tuning video. One question, is a E625 kit the highest stage available? From looking on the website I do see the E600 (6-6.7 psi) and E625 (7-7.5 psi).
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      01-30-2014, 03:03 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Mit_Boost View Post
Unfortunately it doesn't seem like anyone has taken lots of details photos while doing an Evolve supercharger install, but there's two places you can get lots of photos of the components.
  1. This is the Evolve Intro Kit Offer Thread -- There's some really nice pics of the finished components (Billet Supercharger Bracket, Air/Air Intercooler, Manifold, etc). Some really nice pics of the production pieces.
  2. This is the Evolve R&D Supercharger Thread -- It basically list all the components they're using in the kit, and some pics while they were doing R&D on the shop car. Really cool to see the raw pics and where it started from.

Here's a dyno of that Evolve E600 Kit that put down the 7.03 60-130 time, with stock baseline on a DynoJet.


As you can see, it put down a standard 347 WHP/250 WTQ stock baseline (catless X-Pipe, Valved Mufflers), 93 octane. With the Evolve kit (600 BHP, 6-6.7 PSI on the Rotrex) it put down 550 WHP/360 WTQ (so a gain of 200 WHP/100+ WTQ). Rock solid AFR and very consistent numbers.

IMO, the Evolve has the best craftsmanship of all the E9x M3 supercharger options, and the Air/Air intercooling is the ideal setup with how temperature sensitive the S65 is.
absolutely agree.... the evolve setup takes the best bits of the other kits, and simply "evolves" it... the hardware is LEAPS and bounds above the competion, the intercooler is imo a superior option for a hard driven dual duty vehicle, the only thing thats goes against the kit is that its around 2k more expensive than the competition, but its a cheap price to pay for what your getting if your m3 is a keeper and you want to take it to the next, level, lovely people, super knowledge, im proud their home-grown UK based specialists i will sing their praises all day long. This is imo the best s/c kit currently on the market, and if harrop get it right, that would also be a front runner for me!!
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      01-30-2014, 10:36 AM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit_Boost View Post
Unfortunately it doesn't seem like anyone has taken lots of details photos while doing an Evolve supercharger install, but there's two places you can get lots of photos of the components.
  1. This is the Evolve Intro Kit Offer Thread -- There's some really nice pics of the finished components (Billet Supercharger Bracket, Air/Air Intercooler, Manifold, etc). Some really nice pics of the production pieces.
  2. This is the Evolve R&D Supercharger Thread -- It basically list all the components they're using in the kit, and some pics while they were doing R&D on the shop car. Really cool to see the raw pics and where it started from.

Here's a dyno of that Evolve E600 Kit that put down the 7.03 60-130 time, with stock baseline on a DynoJet.


As you can see, it put down a standard 347 WHP/250 WTQ stock baseline (catless X-Pipe, Valved Mufflers), 93 octane. With the Evolve kit (600 BHP, 6-6.7 PSI on the Rotrex) it put down 550 WHP/360 WTQ (so a gain of 200 WHP/100+ WTQ). Rock solid AFR and very consistent numbers.

IMO, the Evolve has the best craftsmanship of all the E9x M3 supercharger options, and the Air/Air intercooling is the ideal setup with how temperature sensitive the S65 is.

Thats not accurate. Those stock runs in that graph are with just an air filter and rear- stilly fully catted. Catless and tune it did about 370.
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      01-30-2014, 10:46 AM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
absolutely agree.... the evolve setup takes the best bits of the other kits, and simply "evolves" it... the hardware is LEAPS and bounds above the competion, the intercooler is imo a superior option for a hard driven dual duty vehicle, the only thing thats goes against the kit is that its around 2k more expensive than the competition, but its a cheap price to pay for what your getting if your m3 is a keeper and you want to take it to the next, level, lovely people, super knowledge, im proud their home-grown UK based specialists i will sing their praises all day long. This is imo the best s/c kit currently on the market, and if harrop get it right, that would also be a front runner for me!!

All of those points are debatable, as the word "best" is completely subjective. $2k more than tried and true competitors that have been on the market for a *long* time now is something that *really* has to be considered. To me, each kit has strong point and weak points, making each attractive in its own way. LOVE the IM on the Evolve kit, best one I've seen, bar none. But is that alone worth a $2k price bump? Function over form for me, I'd like to see flow rate for each.
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      01-30-2014, 11:26 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
All of those points are debatable, as the word "best" is completely subjective. $2k more than tried and true competitors that have been on the market for a *long* time now is something that *really* has to be considered. To me, each kit has strong point and weak points, making each attractive in its own way. LOVE the IM on the Evolve kit, best one I've seen, bar none. But is that alone worth a $2k price bump? Function over form for me, I'd like to see flow rate for each.
I think it is and here are my reasons for why I choice the Evolve kit over ESS/VF/AA

1. I have been on the market for a supercharger for well over a year, I have seen and first hand experience with many of the kits that were available before the Evolve kit came out. I was really not that impressed. (overall build quality of many and some with the service) For example (and not to state any negative) one of my friends had a ESS kit installed on his E92 M3, and after installing everything the bumper did not sit right and a few others things, not fault of ESS, but turned me off the kit.

2. Customer Service is huge in my book, currently I have been bugging Sal for tweets to my tune and without just ignoring my 100+ emails he takes care of it free of charge. I mean how can you beat that? I believe I have been had over a dozen revisions to my current tune and I am very happy that they have assisted me.

3. A kit that not everyone runs, I was really considering purchasing a VF kit, but after reading reviews and talking to some vendors and my personal experience with VF and there lack of customer service, I just knew that not many (currently only 2 Evolve Setups in the US) are running the kit.

4. The Evolve kit for sure is over engineered, I love it! From my research on Evolve they love to test every component and make sure it will last. I want to be confident in my investment and know that even if I put 1000+ miles on it the components will last and whatever I do have to replace will be minor. I am currently running the Evolve E-tronic, and yes it is a bit higher in price, but when you look at the quality of how it was made and how well things just fit I am happy to dish out the money, knowing that I am purchasing something quality and will last.

You can call me a Fanboy all you want, And I am not going to lie I am one. But when I am treated like a king whenever I have a request or question that makes me happy and I don't mind paying for something I know is quality.
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      01-30-2014, 11:30 AM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkPOTO View Post
I think it is and here are my reasons for why I choice the Evolve kit over ESS/VF/AA

1. I have been on the market for a supercharger for well over a year, I have seen and first hand experience with many of the kits that were available before the Evolve kit came out. I was really not that impressed. (overall build quality of many and some with the service) For example (and not to state any negative) one of my friends had a ESS kit installed on his E92 M3, and after installing everything the bumper did not sit right and a few others things, not fault of ESS, but turned me off the kit.

2. Customer Service is huge in my book, currently I have been bugging Sal for tweets to my tune and without just ignoring my 100+ emails he takes care of it free of charge. I mean how can you beat that? I believe I have been had over a dozen revisions to my current tune and I am very happy that they have assisted me.

3. A kit that not everyone runs, I was really considering purchasing a VF kit, but after reading reviews and talking to some vendors and my personal experience with VF and there lack of customer service, I just knew that not many (currently only 2 Evolve Setups in the US) are running the kit.

4. The Evolve kit for sure is over engineered, I love it! From my research on Evolve they love to test every component and make sure it will last. I want to be confident in my investment and know that even if I put 1000+ miles on it the components will last and whatever I do have to replace will be minor. I am currently running the Evolve E-tronic, and yes it is a bit higher in price, but when you look at the quality of how it was made and how well things just fit I am happy to dish out the money, knowing that I am purchasing something quality and will last.

You can call me a Fanboy all you want, And I am not going to lie I am one. But when I am treated like a king whenever I have a request or question that makes me happy and I don't mind paying for something I know is quality.
I'm not questioning your decision to purchase that kit, it's your money, do what makes you happy My post is regarding the way *I* feel about the kits out there, and what *I* call into question before I depart with my hard earned dollars
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      01-30-2014, 11:33 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I'm not questioning your decision to purchase that kit, it's your money, do what makes you happy My post is regarding the way *I* feel about the kits out there, and what *I* call into question before I depart with my hard earned dollars
I agree, it took me over a year to figure out what I wanted. And don't get me wrong I have been tempted with the many used sale threads out there. At the end of the day it is what makes you happy. The evolve kit fit my criteria of what I wanted in a kit. And I do not regret parting ways with my hard earned money.
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      01-30-2014, 11:49 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by mkPOTO View Post
I agree, it took me over a year to figure out what I wanted. And don't get me wrong I have been tempted with the many used sale threads out there. At the end of the day it is what makes you happy. The evolve kit fit my criteria of what I wanted in a kit. And I do not regret parting ways with my hard earned money.
Very good! In for dynos and various Mexico run vids
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      01-30-2014, 12:06 PM   #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
All of those points are debatable, as the word "best" is completely subjective. $2k more than tried and true competitors that have been on the market for a *long* time now is something that *really* has to be considered. To me, each kit has strong point and weak points, making each attractive in its own way. LOVE the IM on the Evolve kit, best one I've seen, bar none. But is that alone worth a $2k price bump? Function over form for me, I'd like to see flow rate for each.
What is debatable about CNC machined parts, more thought going into belt rib Vs belt traction and a solution to belt slip, larger and more efficient A-A intercooler? Those are not debatable.


The individual pieces that make up each respective kit can easily be compared. Its not as if the price is arbitrarily raised over the competition, the value is in quality.

But your not buying individual pieces, your buying a kit. So as a kit, form follows function. You asked for flow rates, we already know a vortech flows about 50cc higher than a rotrex. no big deal in terms of power, maybe a few hp at first glance. But then, again, the total package, A-A IC vs A-W, is the A-A doing a better job at fighting heat? I personally think so given the data we have seen, meaning you keep the power your making and not retarding timing in the IAT tables.

Secondly, the S/C characteristics of each come into play. That rotrex sure does look to come to life about 500-1k rpms sooner than a vortech. Does it matter in a race? maybe, maybe not.
Does it matter on the street when your not going full throttle, I would say so.

I dont intend to stir up another tuner battle, but both have been in the business for a long time, so you can negate your "vs an established company" theory, because they both are.

Buy whichever you like more - or can afford. Noone really cares both are good choices, but there is a market for the differences in any kit you buy.
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      01-30-2014, 12:25 PM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
You asked for flow rates, we already know a vortech flows about 50cc higher than a rotrex.
At no point did I mentioned the s/c'ers themselves. My commentary was about the manifolds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
so you can negate your "vs an established company" theory, because they both are.
Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about "an established company". I specifically said
Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname
"$2k more than tried and true competitors that have been on the market for a *long* time now"
referencing the KITS THEMSELVES, not the companies. Don't try to twist this into something it isn't, nor make me appear as if I'm trying to do the same. I know that Evolve has been around for a bit, and their products are quite tasty. I am also aware that if the market supports the price, there's nothing wrong with asking for what you think your product is worth.

As far as I'm concerned, as I previously stated, there are things about each kit that I like. We all know you have to pay to play. MY opinion (everyone has one) is that I carefully weigh the price point when I'm about to step into the ring. Like opinions, everyone has a varying price points that they're willing to pay. mkPOTO has his, as indicated by his purchase. And I have mine. Nothing wrong with differences, my man. I may decide that I want to play at that point and forgo picking up a MKIV a little longer. Who knows....

Last edited by whats77inaname; 01-30-2014 at 12:45 PM..
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      01-30-2014, 12:45 PM   #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
But your not buying individual pieces, your buying a kit. So as a kit, form follows function. You asked for flow rates, we already know a vortech flows about 50cc higher than a rotrex. no big deal in terms of power, maybe a few hp at first glance. But then, again, the total package, A-A IC vs A-W, is the A-A doing a better job at fighting heat? I personally think so given the data we have seen, meaning you keep the power your making and not retarding timing in the IAT tables.
I need a datalogger badly to confirm...but from what I've gathered over the years from speaking with a number of the builders of these systems (and I've just now recently come to realize) is that it's not just higher IAT's that result in power loss...it's EGT's, oil and water temps, fuel trims, etc. In fact higher IAT's may have the smallest impact compared with these other variables on the S/C S65.

Outside teh variables noted above, the most important things to consider on the S/C S65 is 1) quality fuel and 2) DA's. One day I'll be doing high 8 to low 9 second 60-130's runs on the VBox in the heat of the SoCal high-elevation deserts and then later that night at 2am back home at sea level I'll be seeing high 6's. The effect on my turbo 911 is far less dramatic, where I'm seeing high 7's on a hot day and low 7's on a cold evening. This variability on the M3 has made me give up on it for straight line racing, as I can't control DA's.

As it relates to S/C M3's, I prefer to air to air (and frankly am extremely impressed with the Evolve system) but it will not differ much as compare to the air to water counterparts as IAT's just aren't that significant of a variable.
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      01-30-2014, 01:02 PM   #413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
All of those points are debatable, as the word "best" is completely subjective. $2k more than tried and true competitors that have been on the market for a *long* time now is something that *really* has to be considered. To me, each kit has strong point and weak points, making each attractive in its own way. LOVE the IM on the Evolve kit, best one I've seen, bar none. But is that alone worth a $2k price bump? Function over form for me, I'd like to see flow rate for each.
Yes, the Evolve kit is a little more expensive but the quality of the parts & near OEM finish offsets any price difference that might exists. It's also nice to know that Evolve is very, very customer focused and will do anything to make sure that the client is enjoying their products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
At no point did I mentioned the s/c'ers themselves. My commentary was about the manifolds.
Because there is a difference (Air/Water vs Air/Air) the manifolds obviously must be designed differently and will have different flow rates.

Like I previously stated, the S65 is a VERY IAT sensitive motor (perhaps it's something pre-programmed into the DME, perhaps its the motor itself). This has been shown on N/A and Supercharged cars, that once IAT suppression has gone to shit the motor slow pulls timing (E85 has shown to counter this, but that it is a direct benefit provided by ethanol's "cooling" properties as a fuel).

Their is nothing wrong with the Air/Water or Air/Air kits, they both will have their advantages. For someone who strictly wants a single purpose, 1/4 mile or 60-130 car then Air/Water will be better as long as the water temp is kept down. I haven't seen an ice box's for the E9x M3 Air/Water kits, but I think it'd def be a very worthwhile mod (Weistec sells them for their M156 Supercharger kits). The Air/Air kits are undeniably better suited for cars that are street driven or track raced. While the initial IAT reduction will not beat a "fresh" Air/Water car, the passive air flow will keep the IATs consistent and (over the long term) lower than an Air/Water kit. This is also one of the reasons I'm disappointed the F3x M3/M4 is Air/Water, and expect an Air/Air conversion to be an aftermarket option.


Air/Water is far from ideal on street cars, and tends to be used A) in factory supercharger applications (Terminator Mustang, B8 S4, x55 AMG Mercs, etc) or B) when an aftermarket Air/Air system isn't feasible (Ex: TT-Lambos/R8s, an Air/Air is completely unrealistic without chopping the car up because of the cars design/layout).
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      01-30-2014, 01:12 PM   #414
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At no point did I mentioned the s/c'ers themselves. My commentary was about the manifolds.



Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about "an established company". I specifically said


referencing the KITS THEMSELVES, not the companies. Don't try to twist this into something it isn't, nor make me appear as if I'm trying to do the same. I know that Evolve has been around for a bit, and their products are quite tasty. I am also aware that if the market supports the price, there's nothing wrong with asking for what you think your product is worth.

As far as I'm concerned, as I previously stated, there are things about each kit that I like. We all know you have to pay to play. MY opinion (everyone has one) is that I carefully weigh the price point when I'm about to step into the ring. Like opinions, everyone has a varying price points that they're willing to pay. mkPOTO has his, as indicated by his purchase. And I have mine. Nothing wrong with differences, my man. I may decide that I want to play at that point and forgo picking up a MKIV a little longer. Who knows....
Apologies for paraphrasing - please enlighten us as to what you meant by this then. Confused on what you meant by "tried and true" and "long time", if not the history..
Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
$2k more than tried and true competitors that have been on the market for a *long* time now is something that *really* has to be considered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longboarder View Post
I need a datalogger badly to confirm...but from what I've gathered over the years from speaking with a number of the builders of these systems (and I've just now recently come to realize) is that it's not just higher IAT's that result in power loss...it's EGT's, oil and water temps, fuel trims, etc. In fact higher IAT's may have the smallest impact compared with these other variables on the S/C S65.

Outside teh variables noted above, the most important things to consider on the S/C S65 is 1) quality fuel and 2) DA's. One day I'll be doing high 8 to low 9 second 60-130's runs on the VBox in the heat of the SoCal high-elevation deserts and then later that night at 2am back home at sea level I'll be seeing high 6's. The effect on my turbo 911 is far less dramatic, where I'm seeing high 7's on a hot day and low 7's on a cold evening. This variability on the M3 has made me give up on it for straight line racing, as I can't control DA's.

As it relates to S/C M3's, I prefer to air to air (and frankly am extremely impressed with the Evolve system) but it will not differ much as compare to the air to water counterparts as IAT's just aren't that significant of a variable.
I would disagree, the S65 is VERY temperamental, IATs are going to cause retarding, You can see this by running the car on the dyno, with no downtime, and no dyno tricks. The others you mentioned play a part, but IAT is first and the greatest power loss. Try doing 5 runs in under 6 minutes, while logging everything and you will see the losses congruent with IAT rise.

I dont debate quality fuel, but in marketing tactics that could be many things. mixing 93 and race fuel is not quality fuel, its racegas mix. Run the highest pump octane you can find or dont bring it up. your either on pump fuel or race gas. If you want to know what the car is doing, then use the fuel you normally do. If you want to know what you most capable of, use the race fuel. I dont care, nobody does, but you better say it when posting results or its shady and misleading.

As for your M vS 911, you have another variable, and thats cooling. One was designed from the ground up to support long high performance driving with boost, the other was not and is only doing the best it can.

If you want to compare A-A and A-W then please do, because every other platform knows that A-A will combat heat better over a longer time. water is great at dissipating heat, until its hot, then it takes longer to cool than the aluminum. I request, if you want debate that, find some tech articles and start a new thread, we can do it in there.
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      01-30-2014, 01:15 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
Apologies for paraphrasing - please enlighten us as to what you meant by this then. Confused on what you meant by "tried and true" and "long time", if not the history..
Addressed this already....tried and true S65 s/c'er kits. Not attempting to discount Evolve AT ALL, as I'm a *big* fan of the Rotrex. I realize they are new to the S65 s/c game. I realize their kit is phenomenal in terms of construction, as well. They are on my short list, but before I do anything, in truth, I'd really like to see how Gintani fares w/the TT bid

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Originally Posted by Mit_Boost View Post
Like I previously stated, the S65 is a VERY IAT sensitive motor (perhaps it's something pre-programmed into the DME, perhaps its the motor itself). This has been shown on N/A and Supercharged cars, that once IAT suppression has gone to shit the motor slow pulls timing (E85 has shown to counter this, but that it is a direct benefit provided by ethanol's "cooling" properties as a fuel).
Well aware of the IAT effects on the S65, and already addressed with a Vishnu PWM to help combat it
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      01-30-2014, 01:30 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
Well aware of the IAT effects on the S65, and already addressed with a Vishnu PWM to help combat it
So your tuned for methanol? Interesting, is this a supercharged car? care to share some details in a new thread so we can learn from your endeavours?
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      01-30-2014, 01:34 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by SickeM3 View Post
So you're tuned for methanol? Interesting, is this a supercharged car? care to share some details in a new thread so we can learn from your endeavours?
No, not tuned for methanol ATM. I believe in the acquisition of supporting mods prior to moving on to FI. The Vishnu PWM was one such acquisition. Methanol tuning will come later this year, after the acquisition of HFCs, as I don't want to have the car tuned twice while N/A.

My current focus is on my truck, which I'm converting to a 5MT in my garage, so the car hasn't rec'd much attention lately. I've been more focused on the acquisition of parts to continue my build after my truck is finished. When the time arrives, I'll start the appropriate thread(s), as I'm also interested in seeing what an E85 mix does w/the Vishnu.

That all being said, this thread isn't about me or my builds, so if you have add'l questions, feel free to PM me
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      01-30-2014, 01:44 PM   #418
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Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
No, not tuned for methanol ATM. I believe in the acquisition of supporting mods prior to moving on to FI. The Vishnu PWM was one such acquisition. Methanol tuning will come later this year, after the acquisition of HFCs, as I don't want to have the car tuned twice while N/A.

My current focus is on my truck, which I'm converting to a 5MT in my garage, so the car hasn't rec'd much attention lately. I've been more focused on the acquisition of parts to continue my build after my truck is finished. When the time arrives, I'll start the appropriate thread(s), as I'm also interested in seeing what an E85 mix does w/the Vishnu.

That all being said, this thread isn't about me or my builds, so if you have add'l questions, feel free to PM me
interesting, i thought the idea of the vishnu PWM on the M3 was to have the meth activated and tuned for at once, same basic canned tune everyone else does. Thats what I thought I read about the vishnu kit.
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