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03-14-2008, 12:15 PM | #23 | |
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The GT-R should have a higher drivetrain loss from its extra fore-aft axle system. Front engine, rear transmission WITH extra shaft from rear transaxle to front diff! This is very different than the 997TT system. If you can read you will note I never in ANY WAY implied that I don't believe this dyno test. I am simply saying this is only one small and fairly insufficient piece of data. Dyno tests get you wheel or hub power torque ONLY, power at the wheels as well as crank figures are then CALCULATED with a good of a GUESS as possible as to the total loss. What don't you get about that? |
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03-14-2008, 12:42 PM | #24 | |
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03-14-2008, 01:19 PM | #25 | |
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If these two particular cars were tested both on the strip and at the track and the GT-R outperformed the 997TT I would be convinced and I would then say that a under-rating is very unlikely and if present no more than ~10 or so hp and ft lb. This would also improve my opinions of the GT-Rs chassis, suspension, drivetrain and traction control system (which by the way is already a very high opinion!). By the way this is more of a case of lack of data rather than misinterpreting data. As more and more evidence become available my theories adjust. It is called a scientific approach, combined with a healthy dose of skepticism. The cars N'Ring time is still an outlier. Recall the good discussion and analysis (by many) on the regression thread here. Specifically on the Ring lap time I still stick to my basic contentions there. Perhaps a small update is in order. IMO one or more of the following is the case for the 7:38 lap time: 1. They have really reinvented the sports car and bested everyone by a significant margin. Maybe it could be some combination of their (AWD system, dual clutch, traction control) systems. 2. That car was under rated in term of power 3. That car was under rated in terms of weight (claimed>actual) 4. That cars Bridgestone tires were a track/competition style tire that was still DOT legal. The tires are likely equivalent to a MPSC or better. 5. The driver was so darn elite that he was responsible for majority of the outlier nature of the lap time. Do recall Sportauto with Horst at the wheel only achieved a 7:53 time. |
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03-14-2008, 01:21 PM | #26 |
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When manufacturers specification, field tests (both performance and weight), dyno tests and simulations all agree fairly closely I call this an overwhleming concurence of the evidence. When you have this then you have a very stong case/theory that the manufacturers specs are all honest.
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03-14-2008, 02:24 PM | #27 | |
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03-14-2008, 02:31 PM | #28 | |
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03-14-2008, 02:50 PM | #29 | |
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03-14-2008, 07:32 PM | #31 | |
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As far as the other dynos what is consistent is those results with some of the best observed performance figures for the car. |
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03-14-2008, 08:13 PM | #33 | ||
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P.S. Please don't tell me that you base your conclusion on the performance data that is available and that it makes sense with the dyno test that you posted, so therefore it must be right. IT IS NOT THE SAME EXACT CAR. Last edited by gbb357; 03-14-2008 at 09:30 PM.. |
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03-14-2008, 09:10 PM | #34 |
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No, I'm not trying to ignore what you say. I was just trying to make my own point as well. Glad we agree on cars
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03-14-2008, 10:33 PM | #35 | |||
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Let's make it easier for you Swamp.
1st question:
Did the dyno test that you(swamp) posted have any performance data at all? Answer: NO. None whatsoever. 2nd question: Did you (swamp) said that the dyno test does not prove anything unless it has specific performance data on the same car that the dyno test was done on? Answer: Yes. Here are some of your own statements. Quote:
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If that is the case, don't you think that original dyno test that you posted in the "GTR massively under-rating" thread does not prove anything at all since there where no performance data that was done on that same car that was tested on the dyno? Answer: Should be yes, that the original dyno test did not prove anything. But i'm sure you (swamp) would say no. Because that favors you(swamp) and your statement and "opinions" about the GTR being "massively under-rated". Conclusion: Swamp would never be convinced that the GTR is not under-rated but rather "massively under-rated" no matter what evidence or proof is presented. And no dyno test on any GTR is valid unless every single GTR is dyno tested and have specific performance data with the exact same car will he approved that the results are valid. Even though the dyno test he originally posted did not have any performance data, in Swamps opinion they where valid because it was enough proof for him to call the GTR "cheating and a liar". Last edited by gbb357; 03-15-2008 at 12:43 AM.. |
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03-14-2008, 10:46 PM | #36 |
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Read this Swamp. From Edmunds InsideLine:
World Domination
As we discovered in Inside Line's exclusive first test in Japan, the 2009 Nissan GT-R will rocket to 60 mph in just 3.3 seconds and blow through the quarter-mile in 11.6 seconds at more than 120 mph. This makes the GT-R R35 the quickest accelerating production vehicle we have ever tested. Quicker than any Ferrari. Quicker than any Corvette. Quicker than any Viper. And quicker than the Porsche 911 Turbo that was the yardstick against which Nissan measured all aspects of the GT-R's performance during its development. If you look at the official Nissan power figures for the GT-R's twin-turbo 24-valve DOHC V6, such performance shouldn't be possible. Nissan rates this engine at 480 horsepower and 434 pound-feet of torque. (These are the figures announced for the GT-R in the Japanese domestic market as tested here, though Nissan promises that all GT-Rs planetwide will produce essentially identical power.) This all-aluminum beast is the most powerful engine ever installed in a production car from Japan, but the GT-R weighs more than 3,800 pounds, and such performance just doesn't add up with these numbers, whether you're using a supercomputer or an abacus. In contrast, the Porsche 911 Turbo's turbocharged 3.6-liter horizontally opposed six is rated at 480 hp, while the car itself weighs less than 3,600 pounds. And yet the all-wheel-drive Porsche's gasp-inducing 3.4-second wallop to 60 mph is only a tenth-of-a-tick behind the all-wheel-drive Nissan's effort. The dyno answers our questions. (All the data that follows is uncorrected for weather or altitude.) Mustang Corral Harman Motive is one of Southern California's top tuning houses, with a focus on BMW, Mitsubishi, Nissan and Subaru. And the tool that gives Harman its edge in the high-performance market is its Mustang MD-AWD-500-SE chassis dynamometer. Harman's dyno cell is a cost-no-object showpiece, complete with an oversize, soundproof enclosure, twin ceiling-mounted air-extraction fans, and even windows for spectators. Essentially, the Mustang dyno is a set of front rollers and a set of rear rollers that are mechanically linked to one another. The rollers are hooked up in turn to a single eddy-current absorber for the electricity that's produced. By measuring the amount of DC power applied to the coils and measuring the rpm of the spinning rotors, engine power is easily computed. Even at a shop as hard-core as Harman, the GT-R attracted a crowd as it was strapped down onto the dyno. "God," said one, "that's one big, mean-looking car." We topped off the GT-R's tank with a blend of 91 octane pump gasoline and enough 100 octane unleaded racing fuel to wind up at around 94 octane, close to what's commonly available in Japan. The Rollers Tell the Truth Though the GT-R has sizable exhaust tips, the four exhaust outlets themselves are surprisingly small in diameter, so the car isn't very loud. Nonetheless, the sound of the big tires against the rollers sets up a terrific banshee wail that seems to turn the air into jelly. It's not an easy deal. All Japan-spec cars are equipped with a top-speed limiter at 180 km/h (112 mph) and we keep banging into it when we use 4th gear in the GT-R. Finally we select 3rd gear and get some clean pulls. When the computer finishes crunching the numbers, the data tells us that the 2009 Nissan GT-R is putting out 406 hp at 6,400 rpm and 414 lb-ft of torque at 3,800 rpm. Once you factor in the parasitic losses of the all-wheel-drive system, these numbers are wholly in line with Nissan's claim for the engine's power at the crankshaft. During one pull, the horsepower perked up to 414 hp, but it wasn't repeatable and torque production through the midrange suffered. Earlier, Harman tested a 997-generation Porsche 911 Turbo on the same dyno, and we discovered some interesting things when we overlaid its power curve with that of the GT-R. The Porsche's variable-geometry turbos give its six-cylinder engine a significant advantage in torque output over the GT-R below 3,600 rpm. But once these engines reach the range between 3,600 and 5,700 rpm (where the real work of acceleration must be done), the GT-R's V6 has the 911's flat-6 covered. One World, One Godzilla Nissan has long insisted that the 2009 Nissan GT-R will be available only in a single specification across the entire planet. There might be a few software tweaks to adjust for fuel quality in various markets, but for the most part the American-market GT-R that's coming here soon will differ from JSpecConnect.com's GT-R only slightly. What the dyno charts suggest is that the GT-R's performance advantage isn't solely in the power generated by its twin-turbo V6. Much of the GT-R's edge lies in technology like its launch control system, its dual-clutch automated manual transmission and the awe-inspiring way the all-wheel-drive system ensures that so much of the power makes its way to the road. The 2009 Nissan GT-R isn't simply a car with a lot of power; it's a car that makes the most out of the power that it has. At any one time, there can only be one king at the top of the hill. And right now, the Nissan GT-R is enjoying that panoramic view. Here's the rest of the article and video: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...opanel..1.*#34 Last edited by gbb357; 03-15-2008 at 12:30 AM.. |
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03-15-2008, 12:57 AM | #37 |
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gbb: I am really done with you. You are so impossible to have a discussion with let alone an argument. You isolate everything and see nothing as a whole or in context. You quote out of context, misinterpret statements, get too emotional, continually miss the main points, don't understand definitions, pretty much do not read, etc., etc., etc.
You win, you are 100% right, I am 100% wrong there never was a shred of evidence that the GT-R was under-rated and never will be. It is a mircale vehicle and Pwns every car ever made. Revel in your glorious and meticulous defeat of swamp2 through your beautifully crafted and brilliant logic and arguments. I bow at your feet to worship your intellect. Adios, I am so done wasting my time with you. |
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03-15-2008, 05:18 AM | #39 |
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gbb357,
As always your remarks are correct and in my opinion based in facts. The reason why the GTR is on most tests quicker than the equally powered 997tt is down to three other factors, 1: The gearbox which regardless of what Nissan says is changing gears very bit as quick as either DSG or BMW's DCT system will. 2: The efficiency of it's awd system at shifting the power between all of the wheels. 3: It much better balanced chassis in terms of weight. With the Porsche, unlike when the car is in rwd form and comparing it against other rwd car where it's extra weight over the only driving wheels gives it the advantage of traction, this time round the Porsche is at the disadvantage, unlike the Nissan which has a more balance chassis and when the power is being shifted there is sufficient weight over the wheels to benefit but in the Porsche it doesn't have enough weight over the front wheels to get any where near the same benefit that the GTR has. This means that in my opinion the GTR holds advantage over the 997tt in aceleration up to about 100mph at which point I believe the Porsche will gain the upper hand. And in the recent CAR rpadtest which included the M3 and R8 it showed that while the GTR was still the quickest to 100mph by 0.1s it was the Porsche which recorded the higher trap speed on the long straight of the track yet wasn't as quick in the corner before it. |
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03-15-2008, 08:54 AM | #41 | |
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Last edited by gbb357; 03-15-2008 at 11:22 AM.. |
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03-15-2008, 02:51 PM | #42 | |
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I can't wait. Bruce |
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03-15-2008, 03:57 PM | #43 | |
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Best Regards, Rommel |
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03-16-2008, 03:14 AM | #44 | |
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Nice job of assumptions and "pre-excuses" for under performance before the car even gets here. I will emphasize your choice of words here as well, you said "when" not "if". That's particularly funny to me. |
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