M3 vs cayman S

[Powerslide]

Perhaps that it the case - but to compare apples to apples - the Cayman S not only should have had an LSD (like the M3) but also a front-engine, back seat and larger trunk like the M3 - what do you suppose the results would have been in that instance? I think people are missing my point here - if the Cayman S with 320hp and and LSD is still only barely nudging out the M3, and clearly cannot outlap the M3 without an LSD, either way that still speaks incredible volumes for the M3, does it not? (And thats assuming that each 320hp Cayman S that lost to the M3 in those cases did not have an LSD, which is still just an assumption on your part.

[graider]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Perhaps that it the case - but to compare apples to apples - the Cayman S not only should have had an LSD (like the M3) but also a front-engine, back seat and larger trunk like the M3 - what do you suppose the results would have been in that instance? I think people are missing my point here - if the Cayman S with 320hp and and LSD is still only barely nudging out the M3, and clearly cannot outlap the M3 without an LSD, either way that still speaks incredible volumes for the M3, does it not? (And thats assuming that each 320hp Cayman S that lost to the M3 in those cases did not have an LSD, which is still just an assumption on your part.

exactly. to compare a 3700lbs sedan to a 3200lbs 2 seaters is nut. IMO making a smaller lighter car go fast is not hard. but making a car that does everything decent is extremely hard.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by graider

exactly. to compare a 3700lbs sedan to a 3200lbs 2 seaters is nut. IMO making a smaller lighter car go fast is not hard. but making a car that does everything decent is extremely hard.

Exactly - not that the Cayman S doesn't deserve its due amount of praise - but geez - given the numerous advantages the Cayman S has over the M3, one wouldn't think the M3 could out-lap it on so many different tracks - despite the increase to 320 hp and addition of PDK - my point is not to cut down the Cayman S, but to respond to the naysayers who completely overlook just how impressive the M3 is compared to purpose-built sports cars.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Perhaps that it the case - but to compare apples to apples - the Cayman S not only should have had an LSD (like the M3) but also a front-engine, back seat and larger trunk like the M3 - what do you suppose the results would have been in that instance? I think people are missing my point here - if the Cayman S with 320hp and and LSD is still only barely nudging out the M3, and clearly cannot outlap the M3 without an LSD, either way that still speaks incredible volumes for the M3, does it not? (And thats assuming that each 320hp Cayman S that lost to the M3 in those cases did not have an LSD, which is still just an assumption on your part.

Tell me anywhere were I didn't praise the M3 for what it is, it's an incredible machine of which BMW should be very proud of but it doesn't get past the fact that a car (admittedly a sportscar) with only 320hp and much less PTW can actually out lap it when quipped with a LSD.

But then speed isn't everything, the experience you get while driving is just as important and while the M3 is probably the best saloon/coupe of it's caliber it again plays very much second best to a Cayman S.

I can't talk, I bought an M3 instead of a Cayman purely because I needed the space it's couldn't provide but I still wouldn't deny that the Porsche is the superior product from a driver's point of view.

[footie]

Originally Posted by shift@red

The m3 is bmws best car...the lightest M car, most nimble, etc.

The M3 is BMW's best car given the restraints of what they have to work with, I have little doubt that BMW could make a supercar to rival the best of them.

The main difference between BMW and Porsche is Porsche cars regardless of model are designed for one purpose, going very quickly round corners where as BMW make very entertaining to drive family cars that they then take to their M-Division and make those perform to the best of their ability.

I would love to see BMW stand up and build their eco-supercar, it is the only way I see BMW making it in this market because they have had their fingers burnt every time they tried in this sector but this would be a roaring success.

I would be first at there door.

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

It may be more 'purpose built' but it is still held back by Porsche. The m3 is bmws best car...the lightest M car, most nimble, etc. The Cayman S is Porsche's entry level sports car. The fact that Porsche hampers it and that it still gives the m3 trouble and/or beats it shows just how good Porsche is even when they are trying all that much. The cayman S, if the space is not needed is a superior car as far as driving goes.
The m3 is impressive, but not nearly as exhilirating or fun to drive as a Cayman S.
And where are the number advantages for the cayman in anything other than weight? its down about 100 hp (more than enough to make up for the m3s weight diadvantage), 2 cylinders, .4 liters of displacement, down on tq, etc.
The 997.2 S has, other than a 300 lbs weight advantage, less hp than the m3 and it beats the m3 on nearly every track and road course. And that still hasnt even touched the pinnacle of the Porsche lineup.
Each of these cars delivers a different experience, you just need to pick whats most important to you and buy what you want/need.

you do realize that weight affect not just acceleration, but handling, feel, etc right? the porsche is faster because it is lighter with track focus suspension. there is nothing in porsche line that bmw engineer can't do. they simply don't want or have a need to since their goal is to sell mass number.

[graider]

Originally Posted by shift@red

Of course I do. But the power advantage and displacement of the m3 make up for it as far as straight line power goes. The m3 will never handle as well as a Cayman S, period. The cayman S does not have a track focused suspension anymore than the m3 does. they are both made to be STREET cars. Its obvious you havnt had much seat time in either or you would know that.
I dont care what bmw engineers can hypothetically do, THEY HAVNT! Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Lambo, they all have engineers that can pretty much match each other for the most part, but its a matter of actually doing it. Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, they push the envelope (i.e. GT3, LP lambos, 458 italia), while bmw simply doesnt to the same degree.
Lets not get into discussing the GT3 again, ok?

like the gt3 can be out lapped by the much cheaper car from gm and nissan aka z06 on all season tires and gtr with 800lbs extra weight? the cayman is faster or keep up with the m3 simply is due to the weight. that's all it is. I'm just saying there is nothing porsche can do that other can't. imagine if everyone have the same car as porsche, who would buy them? people love varieties. Not everyone can live with or prefer a gt3 or cayman s.

as for bmw, i don't see them making any porsche competitor for a long time. it is simply not the direction where their m department is heading to. porsche remains a niche player which allow them to create car like the gt3, etc.

porsche have not made a car that seat 4 adult and compete with the m3 for the same price. until then, we can have an apple to apple of what each company can do. i do not think it is difficult to make a car like the gt3 at their current price. many company can do this, but not many people can afford it and there is no point to make all the car perform same way as the gt3. variety is part of life.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by graider

like the gt3 can be out lapped by the much cheaper car from gm and nissan aka z06 on all season tires and gtr with 800lbs extra weight? the cayman is faster or keep up with the m3 simply is due to the weight. that's all it is. I'm just saying there is nothing porsche can do that other can't. imagine if everyone have the same car as porsche, who would buy them? people love varieties. Not everyone can live with or prefer a gt3 or cayman s.

as for bmw, i don't see them making any porsche competitor for a long time. it is simply not the direction where their m department is heading to. porsche remains a niche player which allow them to create car like the gt3, etc.

porsche have not made a car that seat 4 adult and compete with the m3 for the same price. until then, we can have an apple to apple of what each company can do. i do not think it is difficult to make a car like the gt3 at their current price. many company can do this, but not many people can afford it and there is no point to make all the car perform same way as the gt3. variety is part of life.

Just to extrapolate, you're saying Kia can build completely viable M competitors, first try? Or Ferrari can build more quiet, reliable Camrys?

Or is it just BMW that can pull this off.

Interesting viewpoint, no matter your answer.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Just to extrapolate, you're saying Kia can build completely viable M competitors, first try? Or Ferrari can build more quiet, reliable Camrys?

Or is it just BMW that can pull this off.

Interesting viewpoint, no matter your answer.

Correct

[murellus]

I'd like to see bmw try to make a car that weighs under 3000 lbs

[footie]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Just to extrapolate, you're saying Kia can build completely viable M competitors, first try? Or Ferrari can build more quiet, reliable Camrys?

Or is it just BMW that can pull this off.

Interesting viewpoint, no matter your answer.

I could answer that.

The answer is YES, each of these brands could do this, all that's required is to hire the correct people to develop the product. For Kia they would approach the designer with the desire model to compete with, approach someone like Lotus or Porsche to develop the chassis, approach Cosworth or similar to develop an engine, etc, etc........hopefully you all are getting the picture.

There is no doubt that certain brands have had years of person experience and in that each of these brands will all drive and feel a certain way which is part of what makes them different. The reason why it doesn't happen more often is each brand knows there limitations as to where their respective products will sell and pushing the boundaries is a risky business.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by footie

I would love to see BMW stand up and build their eco-supercar, it is the only way I see BMW making it in this market because they have had their fingers burnt every time they tried in this sector but this would be a roaring success.

I would be first at there door.

BMW is said to evaluate the feasibility of the VED right now. Maybe they'll really stand up and build it.


Best regards,
south

[footie]

Originally Posted by southlight

BMW is said to evaluate the feasibility of the VED right now. Maybe they'll really stand up and build it.


Best regards,
south

That will be brilliant if true. Should put BMW on the map of not only the supercar world but the Eco one too.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by footie

...The answer is YES, each of these brands could do this, all that's required is to hire the correct people to develop the product. For Kia they would approach the designer with the desire model to compete with, approach someone like Lotus or Porsche to develop the chassis, approach Cosworth or similar to develop an engine, etc, etc........hopefully you all are getting the picture...

I agree, as this has been shown to be the case over and over (though not without teething problems), but I believe graider's point was that BMW could do Porsches on their own, straight out of the box.

In that context, I believe the answer is a flat out NO.

You've perhaps given graider a way out, though, which is kind of you.

Bruce

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by footie

I could answer that.

The answer is YES, each of these brands could do this, all that's required is to hire the correct people to develop the product. For Kia they would approach the designer with the desire model to compete with, approach someone like Lotus or Porsche to develop the chassis, approach Cosworth or similar to develop an engine, etc, etc........hopefully you all are getting the picture.

There is no doubt that certain brands have had years of person experience and in that each of these brands will all drive and feel a certain way which is part of what makes them different. The reason why it doesn't happen more often is each brand knows there limitations as to where their respective products will sell and pushing the boundaries is a risky business.

+1

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I agree, as this has been shown to be the case over and over (though not without teething problems), but I believe graider's point was that BMW could do Porsches on their own, straight out of the box.

In that context, I believe the answer is a flat out NO.

You've perhaps given graider a way out, though, which is kind of you.

Bruce

Why not? They could do the M1 about 30 years ago(a 100% better sportscar than the 934(?) turbo at that time, period.) , they did the Macca F1 engine, they did the E46 M3 CSL, the E46 M3 V8 GTR and Porsche whining back then....

[graider]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

Just to extrapolate, you're saying Kia can build completely viable M competitors, first try? Or Ferrari can build more quiet, reliable Camrys?

Or is it just BMW that can pull this off.

Interesting viewpoint, no matter your answer.

first of all, I didn't say anything like that such as bmw can do a gt3 competitor on first try. second, you have to understand that in this comparison, we are talking about company that make sport car. not a kia (which don't even have a sport car or sporty car) vs porsche or bmw. perhap you should stop making false assumption.

my point is different car company have different goal. bmw build sport sedan. porsche make niche product like the gt3. same like lotus, track car.

but if bmw goal is set to make niche product like porsche, I believe with their engineer know how, they can. let's take the z4m coupe for example. it weight 3200lbs. do you really believe that given the extra cash as the gt3, bmw cannot strip this down to 3000lbs with a higher hp engine and make it faster than the gt3?

[swamp2]

In such hypotheticals one must separate ability to accomplish something from the ability to accomplish it under a given set of key basic constraints such as development time, development cost, product cost and product price. Of course all decisions on what is actually done comes down to profitability. There are odd cases where a brand might accept lower (or no) profit on a model using it as a marketing tool, which is the case with the GT-R (certainly before the multiple price increases).

Lastly, Bruce, your attempt to corner graider by using the fallacy of hasty generalization is a bit weak. He made no such statements nor implied anything of the sort.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Why not? They could do the M1 about 30 years ago(a 100% better sportscar than the 934(?) turbo at that time, period.) , they did the Macca F1 engine, they did the E46 M3 CSL, the E46 M3 V8 GTR and Porsche whining back then....

The M1 is a pretty good example of what they couldn't do. They asked Lamborghini to help building the M1.


Best regards,
south

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by southlight

The M1 is a pretty good example of what they couldn't do. They asked Lamborghini to help building the M1.


Best regards,
south

And in Audi's case, they (VW) flat out bought Lamborghini. Two years after the Gallardo comes the R8!

[footie]

Originally Posted by Garissimo

And in Audi's case, they (VW) flat out bought Lamborghini. Two years after the Gallardo comes the R8!

Sorry for butting in but Audi did almost everything to do with the Gallardo.

Body: Built by Audi and shipped back to Lambo for assembly.

Engine: Audi developed with block supplied by them.

Chassis: Co-developed with Audi.

The only thing that remained truly Lamborghini was the awd system. Another thing, which is the better handling chassis, the R8 or the Gallardo?

Don't assume that Audi haven't the ability to produce a supercar on their own because the Gallardo is the proof that they can.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by footie

Sorry for butting in but Audi did almost everything to do with the Gallardo.

Body: Built by Audi and shipped back to Lambo for assembly.

Engine: Audi developed with block supplied by them.

Chassis: Co-developed with Audi.

The only thing that remained truly Lamborghini was the awd system. Another thing, which is the better handling chassis, the R8 or the Gallardo?

Don't assume that Audi haven't the ability to produce a supercar on their own because the Gallardo is the proof that they can.

The Gallardo was a Lamborghini concept which Audi helped bring to life. The R8 is a bit of an evolution and improvement upon the Gallardo. The fact remains that Audi hadn't produced a mid-engine, street legal supercar until the acquisition of Lamborghini by VW. Seriously, why does Audi bother to even keep Lamborghini's engineers on staff if they posses the ability to design and build supercars all in-house?