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12-03-2011, 09:20 PM | #1 |
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S65 Headers Comparo !!
I wanted to see if there was any real reason to get excited about these types of headers, so I asked PG if he had any dyno charts that might shed some light on the subject one way or the other. Here's what he came up with.
----- The original factory headers are 40mm primary tubes. RD Sport experimented with two different designs of larger tube headers. Headers were produced in 42mm and 44mm primary tube configurations. A Tri-Y collector and 4:1 collector were also tested. The dyno chart immediately below will show only stock and Tri-Y configurations. Another dyno chart later on will show the comparison between Tri-Y and 4:1 collectors with and without ECU tuning. In the first dyno chart, there are five different RD Sport stroker motors: two with stock headers, and three with larger diameter Tri-Y headers. The five motors and their modifications are as follows:
There's a few things that really jump out at me from this dyno chart.
"RS46-5" continued to develop the ECU tuning for the Tri-Y and 4:1 headers. This car was delivered to a well known SoCal BMW tuner. The goal was to use ECU tuning to elimitate the torque dip on the Tri-Y header design. So RS46-5 picks up with the dyno chart below, almost exactly where the dyno chart above left off. Before ECU tuning began, RS46-5 was flashed back to stock, then delivered for ECU tuning. There are four different graphs on the dyno chart below:
Here's what jumps out at me from this chart:
Based on what I saw with these large tube headers, I would want to know the following before making any header decisions.
Last edited by IMG; 12-06-2011 at 06:03 AM.. |
12-03-2011, 09:59 PM | #2 |
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Excellent comparison. The stock headers are very efficient and flow very well. I'm very glad we were able to get actual R&D that shows the stock headers are more than capable to make power even on a fully built engine.
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12-03-2011, 10:38 PM | #3 |
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Stock headers ftw still....
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12-03-2011, 11:59 PM | #4 |
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In all reality the guys at M really did a great job with this car from that magnificent S65, intake and even the stock exhaust really. It will be interesting to see what the headers that IND has from M24 will do though...
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12-04-2011, 12:07 AM | #5 |
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Why would those be any different? We've seen 40, 42, 44mm ID and different collectors and none showed a gain in power. Very hard to make a power gain when the OEM headers are already very efficient and have no cats. I don't see how INDs could be any different and make the claimed 27whp.
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12-04-2011, 12:43 AM | #6 | |
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All I was saying is that it will be interesting to see what their results are with the claims that were made and the data we have seen here and before regarding the OEM set.
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12-04-2011, 01:00 AM | #7 |
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The stock headers are excellent.
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12-04-2011, 06:49 AM | #8 |
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Those are all 400 rwhp motors. What is efficient at 400 rwhp may not be efficient at 600 rwhp. I would like to see some testing on supercharged cars.
I think Supersprint also made an S65 header but that it is sold only through Hamann and maybe only as part of a package. |
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12-04-2011, 07:56 AM | #9 |
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A very informative post! This goes to show how crucial and meticulous tuning every part of a NA engine can be!
I really wish someone would try out a stepped, equal-length, long-tube, 4-1 header for this car. Thanks again for sharing. I'm looking forward to seeing how this data compares to Motorsport24's headers.
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12-04-2011, 09:23 AM | #10 | |
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IND has made no claims on power increases nor are they the manufacturer of the headers, they just quoted the numbers that the manufacturer stated. Also, I didn't interpret the numbers that 24 Motorsport gave as 27 WHP, I thought it was 27 CHP. Anyway time will tell if there is a gain with these. You can be sure of one thing, if IND sells them they will be a good product and the gains if any, will be independently documented!!! |
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12-05-2011, 02:58 AM | #11 | |
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But once you introduce ECU tuning into the equation, you're no longer talking about the gains of the headers alone; you're also talking about the gains of the ECU tuning. ECU tuning already gives you 15-20whp gains (17-24chp) without changing headers. So if ECU tuning is apart of the 27hp gains, then I think it's safe to say these headers are adding very little (if any) performance. In case you're wondering if ECU tuning was part of M24's claimed 27whp gain, take a look at their own web page (quoted below): http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate...rUrl=Translate First tests on the achievement test stand resulted in an increased output of 27 HP/22 Nm. Further the S65 specialized elbow union is a further small success in the fight against to high temperatures in BMW the M3 E90, BMW M3 E92 and BMW M3 GTS - we succeeded in lowering the exhaust gas temperatures by our specialized elbow union into combination with a software modification over up to 100° Celsius.OK, so now we know ECU tuning was part of the gains and is also required. I just don't think any tuners will spend the time and R&D energy on a niche market that will only sell to a very small handful of people per year. |
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12-05-2011, 09:10 AM | #12 |
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To my understanding it was IMG's intention to start a compendium of information on already available performance headers.
I understand that seeing a new product released to market can be very exciting and it's tough not to guess at any product's potential benefits and costs before hard data is available, but we've learned over the years that it's best to suspend judgement until production versions are available. Of course playing with hypotheticals can be lots of fun and I would never attempt to discourage that! Because talk turned to M24's new headers in this thread, I would like to reiterate that these pieces are still in the pre-release stages of R&D and although IND has quoted some preliminary figures directly from the manufacturer, as a company we will suspend judgement until a finished version is in our hands and available for testing. Sorry to derail the thread! Hopefully this thread can turn into a comprehensive information database.
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12-05-2011, 10:05 AM | #13 | |
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12-05-2011, 10:28 AM | #14 | |
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P.S.: Thanks for the translated link!!!
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12-05-2011, 03:36 PM | #15 | |
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12-05-2011, 07:41 PM | #16 |
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12-05-2011, 07:54 PM | #17 |
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I'm inclined to think that there will be headers that will add power but they'll be very expensive for minimal gain.
I could see the value for a boosted engine...maybe drop the boost pressure a tad if the headers will flow more.
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12-05-2011, 08:47 PM | #18 | |
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I suspect the reason the tri-Y headers didn't work is due to the uneven pulses of the 90 degree crank. Try-Y works well on typical 4 cylinders with even firing pulses. It's my understanding that 4 into 1 still makes more top end power when tuned well, even on a four cylinder.
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12-06-2011, 03:43 AM | #20 |
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This topic has been beaten to death and beyond on the c63 forum in this thread, which may provide some useful information:
http://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w2...manifolds.html As for the m24 and rd-sport headers, I don't think its accurate to speculate about the performance gains on an N/A application and compare those to an F/I application. In N/A cars, a larger diameter primary could produce negligible gains, or even power loss because with the increased diameter, because there is also a decrease in exhaust velocity once the piping diameter is too large. Bigger is not always better. In F/I, the opposite case may apply. I have seen an e9x m3 with F/I and custom-made headers installed, and the owner did report gains, however I never saw a dyno sheet to confirm. I think there would be gains at higher boost levels, however the gains on N/A, even if they were there, probably would not be worth the expense. On the c63's m156, there are big gains because it comes stock with log-style manifolds. On the s62's, which already comes with equal- length headers, the only place for improvement probably would be increasing the diameter of the primaries or a set of long-tubes.
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12-06-2011, 06:08 AM | #21 |
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I think the issue IMG is bringing up here is the ECU tune. We already know that you can come close to 27hp with a tune. So how much added HP is being produced by the new headers?
I think the only fair test would be to take some of the full bolt-on cars that have intake filters, and full exhausts already, ECU tune, etc... the one's making close to 400hp, and then see if they have much gain from headers. Then do the same with the SC cars to see if the benefits are only realized on FI. Also important to note, is peak HP is not the only factor to look at. Really depends on your application. If you have a full out race car that spends almost all time at high RPM it may be completely different than someone who drives their car on the street.
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