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      11-08-2013, 12:36 AM   #683
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Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
For engine electronics that involve vehicle and passenger safety, I'll bet it's even longer than six years, probably closer to eight.
Let me follow up on this comment.

I have some pretty nice BMW documents in my collection. One of them is the MSS60 application for OBDII certification for MY-2011 and the introduction of the START/STOP feature. The application alone is 248 pages. Certification for MY-2011 was issued on September 15, 2009. That's exactly one year before MY-2011 went into production. There's no submission date on the document, but most likely it was submitted quite a long time earlier, possibly about 6 to 12-months earlier. And this was for an ECU already in production and making a minor change.

Here's a purely hypothetical timeline worked backwards from the first S65 production date. Notice where the S85 engine production begins in this timeline.

Typical design cycle:
  • 04-2007: Production begins
  • 04-2006: OBD-II Certification granted
  • 04-2005: OBD-II Certification submitted
  • 10-2004: MSS60 code and feature complete
  • 09-2004: E60-M5 with S85 engine begins production
  • 10-2002: MSS60 design programming begins. Work with Bosch, Siemens, and Morelli.
  • 10-2001: MSS60 hardware simulation begins
  • 10-2001: MSS60 design approved
  • 09-2001: MSS60 Design reviews complete
  • 07-2001: MSS60 design reviews
  • 04-2001: MSS60 hardware design begins.
  • 10-2000: S65 engine and MSS60 concepts starting to take shape.
  • 04-2000: BMW ///M design committee brainstorms and discusses next generation M3.

Aggressive design cycle (cut everything in half):
  • 04-2007: Production begins
  • 04-2006: OBD-II Certification granted
  • 10-2005: OBD-II Certification submitted
  • 07-2005: MSS60 code and feature complete
  • 09-2004: E60-M5 with S85 engine begins production
  • 07-2004: MSS60 design programming begins. Work with Bosch, Siemens, and Morelli.
  • 01-2004: MSS60 hardware simulation begins
  • 01-2004: MSS60 design approved
  • 12-2003: MSS60 Design reviews complete
  • 11-2003: MSS60 design reviews
  • 09-2003: MSS60 hardware design begins.
  • 06-2003: S65 engine and MSS60 concepts starting to take shape.
  • 03-2003: BMW ///M design committee brainstorms and discusses next generation M3.

Whether you choose a typical manufacturing design schedule or a very aggressive one, there doesn't appear to be any room on there for migrating lessons learned from E60-M5/MSS65 production to the E92-M3/MSS60. The timelines just don't work.
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      11-08-2013, 01:46 AM   #684
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Interesting reading here:

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok...ngine_bearings

http://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/dok...ng_performance
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      11-08-2013, 02:50 AM   #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Whether you choose a typical manufacturing design schedule or a very aggressive one, there doesn't appear to be any room on there for migrating lessons learned from E60-M5/MSS65 production to the E92-M3/MSS60. The timelines just don't work.
From the S65 Wiki page:
"An updated version of the Siemens MSS65 ECU (used in the S85 V10) is fitted to the V8. [.....]The MSS60 was actually produced before the MSS65 control unit, although it was not put into production vehicles until the M3 in 2007."

However I take your point regarding lead times in design and production cycles....nevertheless the ability to dramatically reduce this in the case of unexpected failures/faults (see early E46 M3 recall & clutch /flywheel 2008 M3) should also be taken into account.
So I think the point I made with:
"BMW having had all of the S85 engines that failed in the field returned to them for strip down and analysis, didn't make changes to the bearings and clearances (despite having ample opportunities) [in final production of] the S65"
still poses an interesting question.

I guess the only way forward re: low quality fuel would be to plot all engine failures (include high wear rates but exclude any with S/Cer fitted) geographically and see if there is any global correlation between failure and availability of low octane fuel.

Last edited by SenorFunkyPants; 11-08-2013 at 03:31 AM..
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      11-08-2013, 11:03 AM   #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Snow View Post
Interesting reading here:

Article: Geometrical parameters of engine bearings
Here's a synopsis with select quotes:

Article roughly agrees with Clevite white paper. Article makes two distinctions of classes for clearance: 1) Passenger cars, 2) High performance cars.

For passenger cars, the recommendation is:
Clearance(min) = 0.00050 * D
Clearance(max) = 0.00100 * D
Clearance(midpoint) = 0.00075 * D
Where D = Journal diameter

For high performance cars, the recommendation is:
Clearance(min) = 0.00075 * D
Clearance(max) = 0.00150 * D
Clearance(midpoint) = 0.00125 * D
Where D = Journal diameter

Note: For high performance applications, this article recommends even more conservative clearance specifications than Clevite white paper.
Higher oil clearance causes an increase of the oil flow passing through the bearing and resulting in a lower oil temperature rise. However higher clearance produces less uniform distribution of the oil pressure - greater pick pressure, which increases the probability of the bearing material fatigue. Minimum oil film thickness decreases at higher pressure and may cause direct metal-to-metal contact between the mating surfaces. Too high clearance produces excessive vibration and noise. Lower oil clearance results in a more uniform oil film pressure distribution and a greater oil film thickness however too small clearance causes overheating the oil and a sharp drop of its viscosity. High performance bearings has an increased clearance providing more stable hydrodynamic lubrication under conditions of high loads and high rotation speeds.
Note: One can safely assume the quote above describes the negative effects of too little clearance and too much clearance as it relates to their own clearance recommendations.


Vapor cavitation forms when the load applied to the bearing fluctuates at high frequency (e.g. bearings in high RPM internal combustion engines). The oil pressure instantly falls causing formation of cavities due to fast evaporation (boiling). When the pressure rises the vapor cavities (cavitation bubbles) contract at high velocity. Such collapse results in impact pressure, which may erode the bearing material.
Thanks for posting these articles. It looks like there are many articles at that site which could further our discussion. I'll see if I can go through them over the weekend and post links to the most relevant.
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      11-08-2013, 12:32 PM   #687
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Long time lurker, first time poster. Anyway, I'm surprised no one yet that I've seen has mentioned the obvious explanation for why the incidence of bearing wear/blown engines could be lower in the UK, and that is higher average winter temperatures than most of the northern US and Canada (combined with the relatively thick TWS 10W-60 oil). There's likely a fairly big difference in cold start wear with that oil when you drive in climates where the low is 0 F (-18 C) vs where the low is 0 C (32 F).

Another possible explanation is differences in driving style (on average). Given cost of fuel, taxes, etc., I'd guess a UK car may be less likely to be a DD and more likely to be a weekend car. If this is the case, then a UK M3 would be on average likely to see fewer cold starts than the average American car. I think both of these hypotheses are more likely explanations than gas differences, if it is the case that this issue has a much lower incidence in the UK than the US.
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      11-08-2013, 12:42 PM   #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Long time lurker, first time poster. Anyway, I'm surprised no one yet that I've seen has mentioned the obvious explanation for why the incidence of bearing wear/blown engines could be lower in the UK, and that is higher average winter temperatures than most of the northern US and Canada (combined with the relatively thick TWS 10W-60 oil). There's likely a fairly big difference in cold start wear with that oil when you drive in climates where the low is 0 F (-18 C) vs where the low is 0 C (32 F).

Another possible explanation is differences in driving style (on average). Given cost of fuel, taxes, etc., I'd guess a UK car may be less likely to be a DD and more likely to be a weekend car. If this is the case, then a UK M3 would be on average likely to see fewer cold starts than the average American car. I think both of these hypotheses are more likely explanations than gas differences, if it is the case that this issue has a much lower incidence in the UK than the US.
I don't know about that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that Germany has similar temps as those in the UK, and one of the guys in the E60 forum was talking about replacing bearings every weekend in customer's S85s, so many that he and his buddy work on 2 cars a weekend.
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      11-08-2013, 12:51 PM   #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I don't know about that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that Germany has similar temps as those in the UK, and one of the guys in the E60 forum was talking about replacing bearings every weekend in customer's S85s, so many that he and his buddy work on 2 cars a weekend.
No they don't have similar temps, particularly in northern Germany. The gulf stream keeps the UK warmer than other spots at a similar latitude. I don't know where in Germany that person was located, but I had a friend living in Berlin for years, and their climate seemed similar to how it is here in Chicago, where we can have weeks in the single digits or lower (F). According to stats I saw, it rarely ever gets below 0 C in London.
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      11-08-2013, 01:24 PM   #690
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It would stand to reason that higher climate temps would mean that the engine and oil warm up faster = less bearing wear during cold starts, which would contradict your theory. Driving styles, not sure about.

Edit: Ah, here we go....this was a good read: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...tures-s85.html

Especially the part about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duschanio
I changed it with my friend (he is working in munich at the M GmbH) he said when i drive 5000 km he think the engine will be damaged.....he get every week 2 damaged engines from all over the world .. with the reason bearing rod damage

Last edited by whats77inaname; 11-08-2013 at 01:38 PM..
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      11-08-2013, 01:32 PM   #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
Long time lurker, first time poster. Anyway, I'm surprised no one yet that I've seen has mentioned the obvious explanation for why the incidence of bearing wear/blown engines could be lower in the UK, and that is higher average winter temperatures than most of the northern US and Canada (combined with the relatively thick TWS 10W-60 oil). There's likely a fairly big difference in cold start wear with that oil when you drive in climates where the low is 0 F (-18 C) vs where the low is 0 C (32 F).

Another possible explanation is differences in driving style (on average). Given cost of fuel, taxes, etc., I'd guess a UK car may be less likely to be a DD and more likely to be a weekend car. If this is the case, then a UK M3 would be on average likely to see fewer cold starts than the average American car. I think both of these hypotheses are more likely explanations than gas differences, if it is the case that this issue has a much lower incidence in the UK than the US.
Some interesting points on temps...don't really think that UK cars are more likely to be weekend cars though. On a UK M3 forum I visit the majority of cars are all DDs. You could probably get an idea of usage by researching used UK M3s and seeing how mileages vary with age. I suspect the average wouldn't vary greatly from the USA.
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      11-08-2013, 01:35 PM   #692
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I still think a good part of this issue is caused by people not getting oil temperature before beating on their cars especially with the 10-60 in these engines.I grew up around a lot more temperamental engines that would not tolerate abuse.I use 3000 rpm till I see at least 75-80c oil temp. Believe me this is a pain in the ass driving on our highways till its warmed up getting passed by the normal flow of traffic.
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      11-08-2013, 01:44 PM   #693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
It would stand to reason that higher climate temps would mean that the engine and oil warm up faster = less bearing wear during cold starts, which would contradict your theory.
I don't think you are getting my point. UK has warmer winters than most of northern US and Canada (and northern Germany). SenorFunkyPants says UK has lower incidence of blown engines. Thus, hypothesis is that warmer winters equals fewer blown engines. Someone from Australia also mentioned much earlier in the thread that this is not viewed as much of an issue there. This also supports this hypothesis.

Since the Germany shop is getting engines from around the world, it doesn't allow us to make any correlations about temps to bearing wear.
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      11-08-2013, 01:50 PM   #694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Some interesting points on temps...don't really think that UK cars are more likely to be weekend cars though. On a UK M3 forum I visit the majority of cars are all DDs. You could probably get an idea of usage by researching used UK M3s and seeing how mileages vary with age. I suspect the average wouldn't vary greatly from the USA.
That was just a guess, I really didn't have much to go on. If that's the case, then it leaves us with average winter temps as the best remaining explanation IMO. This is of course assuming there is an actual difference in failure percentage between the US and the UK.
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      11-08-2013, 03:03 PM   #695
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A chart of failures by geographical location could be interesting...requires a bit of research and time though.
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      11-08-2013, 03:43 PM   #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
That was just a guess, I really didn't have much to go on. If that's the case, then it leaves us with average winter temps as the best remaining explanation IMO. This is of course assuming there is an actual difference in failure percentage between the US and the UK.
This doesn't make much sense as a lot of failures submitted by EAS and others are located in southern California where it rarely dips below 50 degrees F and averages 60-70 degrees during the winter. So I don't think weather is a factor.
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      11-08-2013, 04:18 PM   #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
I don't think you are getting my point. UK has warmer winters than most of northern US and Canada (and northern Germany). SenorFunkyPants says UK has lower incidence of blown engines. Thus, hypothesis is that warmer winters equals fewer blown engines. Someone from Australia also mentioned much earlier in the thread that this is not viewed as much of an issue there. This also supports this hypothesis.

Since the Germany shop is getting engines from around the world, it doesn't allow us to make any correlations about temps to bearing wear.
Spot on. My SA has been ringing around the dealerships in Australia, and mind you we don't have very many here, and except for one or two cases, it is not a known issue with S85 or S65. It was acknowledged a case in Queensland, which I know about, but they wouldn't give specifics.

Yes, our climate is lot more warmer than the rest of the world, and our winter, especially in 2/3 of the country, is like a mild summer's day in the UK. Hence the reason it's news to most here.

When I enquired about the various bearing part#, the service manager had to contact BMW Australia to get details of current and superseded parts. If bearing was an issue, this information would have been somewhat readily available locally.

Also when someone says they are getting s lot of engines from around the world per week, that counts for a lot of S85 and S65 engines. They must be getting some engines but the claim I think is an ever exaggeration, and a good selling point for his/her business.

We also get crap fuel in Australia which most are claiming for the 10w-60 turning black very quickly. As I said in one of my prior posts, I changed my oil after 12 months and nearly 5k km, and it was jet black. There was no translucency what so ever. It looked like the oil has burnt. I know someone at Castrol and I will be writing on the weekend to find out why this is happening. There should be some technical explanation to this.

Every time I drive year round, I easily touch the 12 o'clock position on the temp gauge. In the winter it might drop slightly back, but in the summer, which is coming up soon, and currently our temp is averaging 36 Celsius (97 Fahrenheit), the needle sits at 12. So using thinner oil doesn't make sense to me here.
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      11-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
Spot on. My SA has been ringing around the dealerships in Australia, and mind you we don't have very many here, and except for one or two cases, it is not a known issue with S85 or S65. It was acknowledged a case in Queensland, which I know about, but they wouldn't give specifics.

Yes, our climate is lot more warmer than the rest of the world, and our winter, especially in 2/3 of the country, is like a mild summer's day in the UK. Hence the reason it's news to most here.

When I enquired about the various bearing part#, the service manager had to contact BMW Australia to get details of current and superseded parts. If bearing was an issue, this information would have been somewhat readily available locally.

Also when someone says they are getting s lot of engines from around the world per week, that counts for a lot of S85 and S65 engines. They must be getting some engines but the claim I think is an ever exaggeration, and a good selling point for his/her business.

We also get crap fuel in Australia which most are claiming for the 10w-60 turning black very quickly. As I said in one of my prior posts, I changed my oil after 12 months and nearly 5k km, and it was jet black. There was no translucency what so ever. It looked like the oil has burnt. I know someone at Castrol and I will be writing on the weekend to find out why this is happening. There should be some technical explanation to this.

Every time I drive year round, I easily touch the 12 o'clock position on the temp gauge. In the winter it might drop slightly back, but in the summer, which is coming up soon, and currently our temp is averaging 36 Celsius (97 Fahrenheit), the needle sits at 12. So using thinner oil doesn't make sense to me here.
Has anybody from Australia changed their bearings, photographed them, and posted the photos online?
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      11-08-2013, 05:22 PM   #699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swartzentruber View Post
I don't think you are getting my point. UK has warmer winters than most of northern US and Canada (and northern Germany). SenorFunkyPants says UK has lower incidence of blown engines. Thus, hypothesis is that warmer winters equals fewer blown engines. Someone from Australia also mentioned much earlier in the thread that this is not viewed as much of an issue there. This also supports this hypothesis.

Since the Germany shop is getting engines from around the world, it doesn't allow us to make any correlations about temps to bearing wear.
I got your point. If you checked the thread I linked to the M5board, one of the guys in Hong Kong had is motor blow w/60k on it. http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ml#post3876361
*Broken* bearing on an E60 in Texas (southern US) and I wouldn't say we have harsh winters: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ml#post3722377
2007 M6 out of Florida (southern US) that had ~32K on it: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ml#post3874961
2008 E60 w/50K out of Georgia (southeast US): http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...ml#post3922794
2008 E60 w/90k California: http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...000-miles.html

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      11-08-2013, 05:34 PM   #700
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Comparing blown motors to blown motors is going to be very difficult because frankly, people aren't telling the truth about them and we will never get any reliable statistics from BMW or any SA. So that's why I think we should be comparing bearing photos from the different localities to test any of the cold weather theories. I think it's going to be really difficult to make this comparison between US, UK, and AU because I don't think anybody from the UK or AU has replaced their bearings and posted the photos. If there are some from the UK or AU, then please post links so we can make the comparison.

Until members from the UK and AU post bearing photos, it's really going to be impossible to make a comparison to US and Canadian motors. I have asked jcolley @ m5board if any of his members are from the UK or Australia and see if I can bring over some of the photos to this thread if they are. That's the only way to know if the UK and AU are immune or not. I suspect they are not immune.
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      11-08-2013, 05:44 PM   #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whats77inaname View Post
I got your point. If you checked the thread I linked to the M5board, one of the guys in Hong Kong had is motor blow w/60k on it.
Well, I never said or even meant to imply that climate was the only cause, just potentially one decent explanation for why the incidence seems rarer in warmer climates. After all, the engines blowing with <25k can't be just climate. Just because there are some engines blowing up in warmer climates doesn't mean climate isn't at least a contributor, and it seems a reasonable contributor given what we know about the thickness of the TWS 10W-60 at cold startup. The EAS southern cal item pointed out by Z K does seem contradictory, but it doesn't necessarily mean weather isn't a factor, just not necessarily the only factor.

I'd view it like a lot of human diseases, where you might be hereditarily predisposed to something, but lifestyle still plays a factor in whether you actually get the disease. Similarly, some cars may be more predisposed to issues (the tolerance stack up problem), but factors like weather, tuning, how the car is warmed up, etc. determine if that actually leads to a blown engine.
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      11-08-2013, 05:52 PM   #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Comparing blown motors to blown motors is going to be very difficult because frankly, people aren't telling the truth about them and we will never get any reliable statistics from BMW or any SA. So that's why I think we should be comparing bearing photos from the different localities to test any of the cold weather theories. I think it's going to be really difficult to make this comparison between US, UK, and AU because I don't think anybody from the UK or AU has replaced their bearings and posted the photos. If there are some from the UK or AU, then please post links so we can make the comparison.

Until members from the UK and AU post bearing photos, it's really going to be impossible to make a comparison to US and Canadian motors. I have asked jcolley @ m5board if any of his members are from the UK or Australia and see if I can bring over some of the photos to this thread if they are. That's the only way to know if the UK and AU are immune or not. I suspect they are not immune.
I think another one of the issues is that a lot of people are the 2nd/3rd owners of their car, and as one of the guys mentioned, there's no telling how the car was driven by the previous owners.
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      11-08-2013, 05:53 PM   #703
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Originally Posted by regular guy View Post
Has anybody from Australia changed their bearings, photographed them, and posted the photos online?
To my knowledge ... there was one blown engine and the owner wants to remain anonymous. I don't know of any other failures. I will enquire locally through the BMW club to see any known issues.
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      11-08-2013, 06:12 PM   #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aussiem3 View Post
We also get crap fuel in Australia which most are claiming for the 10w-60 turning black very quickly. As I said in one of my prior posts, I changed my oil after 12 months and nearly 5k km, and it was jet black. There was no translucency what so ever. It looked like the oil has burnt. I know someone at Castrol and I will be writing on the weekend to find out why this is happening. There should be some technical explanation to this.
Just FYI, every time I looked at the used TWS 10w-60 from my Z4M (S54) it was black.
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