M division selling out??

[kevinD]

i for 1 look forward to the turbo m3. i had a deposit down on the current e90 m3, but took it back for a number of reasons (one being the horrendous gas mileage). the engine package wasn't really ideal for me either, high revving v8 isn't well suited for aftermarket support, which is is the exact reason i wanted the m3 in the first place.

i have a business tuning and wrenching on cars. the only car i work on is the mitsu evo series. i wanted to branch off into the 335/m3. but after seeing what little there is for (affordable) power mods, the m3 isn't a good choice. the little things, exhaust, intake, pulleys, and a tune make a minor difference (and for the price people are charging for these things it is honestly a joke).

so when the new turbo m3 comes out i will be one of the first to get one, and begin modding it immediately. turbo cars are far more responsive to mods then N/A cars. the M division heritiage makes no difference at all to me. i honestly don't care what a 1995 m3 had and how much of a "Drivers" car it is. i'm more interested in whooping anything and everything around the track. and a N/A m3 v8 wont even come close to my 2.3L turbo 4 cylinder car but a tuned turbo 6 might

[330CIZHP]

x 2....

Don't forget the sound generated through exceptionally fast piston speeds and soaring revs. It sounds like nothing else out there. The experience of seeing the needle swing past 8000 rpm is in itself an unrivaled experience and what most M owners have enjoyed most in the past as part of the M character.

M cars always had been about "exceptional balance and diverse experience" and offering a wide range of experience and not about the fastest drag racing car or the fastest track race car. I am sure if someone brought up back 7 - 8 years ago, "hey the next M3 with a V8 and 420 HP would kick everyone's a**" would have prompted many people to agree that it will be all that. Today, I am sure that is not the case. If you are thinking throwing two turbochargers on it will magically make it the best track or drag race car out there for the money, you are completely mistaken. M cars have never been those and never will be even if it gets 4 turbochargers on it unless it becomes like one of those highly modified econobox turbo cars with cr*p interiors, no luxuries and amenities. Still, there would be dedicated cars that cost less and will whoop its a** in every performance category.

Then again, seeing the X6 M getting floored over the last long weekend with no motor or exhaust sound to write home about, I could see the M cars getting completely redefined.

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Ok well, I can't really debate that with you. I agree that there is no real need here, nor is there a need for a performance car on the street to begin with. It's more a matter of desire, and specifically the desire to have a car that rev's like a Ferrari and can still haul the family. Some people want a car that rev's like a pickup truck and can haul the family. That's fine too. Ok, so there are a lot of sports car and exotics that don't rev high also - that I will concede of course. But I like the high revving ones better and I think that this is true for a lot of others also, otherwise M would not be selling many cars.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by footie

I don't think anyone is getting my point here, I don't see any reason for having a M family car. Away for the track the need for a ultra high-revving engine is nil, and that's what any engine revving north of 8000rpm actually is.

Fixed.

Imo, if it is going to be an M. Then it needs to actually be an M. Not just a suped up car with an M badge slapped on, which is what I consider the X5/6 M cars.

[Murderface]

All this saber rattling and huffing and puffing is a bit silly. I see a whole lot of people threatening not to buy M3's next go-around but I'd be surprised how that actually turns out. Times are changing and if BMW wants to sell M3's they have two options: they can either keep bumping displacement and pass the cost of the resulting CAFE fines onto consumers, moving the car further upmarket or they can figure out how to make it more fuel efficient, albeit with a little less character, and keep it in roughly the same market segment it occupies now. It's not just American fuel economy standards that are changing but EU standards as well.

Also, the 911 GT3 has been brought up a number of times as both a comparison and some sort of threat to BMW. I'm not really sure these cars are even in the same league. If a NA motor is that important to you then feel free to buy a car that costs twice as much and has none of the amenities that no one here can seem to live without.

Finally, no one has brought up the significance of the poll. I find it interesting that almost 75% of the most hardcore 10% of M3 owners indicated they will probably buy another M3 if they switch the engine to FI. Yes, the future of performance cars is uncertain but as hard as it is to believe there are engineers at BMW that rival the armchair automotive engineers you find bloviating on the internet.

Realistically the car is probably at least 6 years from hitting the showroom floor so I think any speculation regarding performance is a bit premature. As for me, I'll reserve my judgement until I actually drive the next M3.

[mvagusta]

simple porsche 911 turbo. If there is a m3 with turbo's!

[footie]

Originally Posted by Murderface

All this saber rattling and huffing and puffing is a bit silly. I see a whole lot of people threatening not to buy M3's next go-around but I'd be surprised how that actually turns out. Times are changing and if BMW wants to sell M3's they have two options: they can either keep bumping displacement and pass the cost of the resulting CAFE fines onto consumers, moving the car further upmarket or they can figure out how to make it more fuel efficient, albeit with a little less character, and keep it in roughly the same market segment it occupies now. It's not just American fuel economy standards that are changing but EU standards as well.

Also, the 911 GT3 has been brought up a number of times as both a comparison and some sort of threat to BMW. I'm not really sure these cars are even in the same league. If a NA motor is that important to you then feel free to buy a car that costs twice as much and has none of the amenities that no one here can seem to live without.

Finally, no one has brought up the significance of the poll. I find it interesting that almost 75% of the most hardcore 10% of M3 owners indicated they will probably buy another M3 if they switch the engine to FI. Yes, the future of performance cars is uncertain but as hard as it is to believe there are engineers at BMW that rival the armchair automotive engineers you find bloviating on the internet.

Realistically the car is probably at least 6 years from hitting the showroom floor so I think any speculation regarding performance is a bit premature. As for me, I'll reserve my judgement until I actually drive the next M3.

Finally someone else with a decent grasp of reality.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Murderface

All this saber rattling and huffing and puffing is a bit silly.

Making a decision about whether to buy a car six years off is a bit premature. I think that goes both for people who say they will buy it and those who don't. That is partly why I didn't answer the poll.

But the discussion itself is not silly, and your own reply suggests that you agree there (unless you think you are silly too). This forum is all about discussions like this and personally I find it far from silly to discuss future possibilities with fellow enthusiasts.

Times are changing and if BMW wants to sell M3's they have two options: they can either keep bumping displacement and pass the cost of the resulting CAFE fines onto consumers, moving the car further upmarket or they can figure out how to make it more fuel efficient, albeit with a little less character, and keep it in roughly the same market segment it occupies now.

The car is going to move up market regardless, I think. They will slot in a high performance 1 series (though not an "M1" or "1M", they've hinted) in below.

...as hard as it is to believe there are engineers at BMW that rival the armchair automotive engineers you find bloviating on the internet.

Righto. As I've said in one of the other half-dozen threads where the future of M and the M3 are discussed - its not just about the performance. M could design a very good M3 powered by a plugin electric series hybrid drivetrain with a 1.5L diesel I3. I'll venture to guess, anyway. So would all 75% of the people who think they are going to get an F3x buy one powered bu this hypothetical setup.? Well I don't know, but I rather doubt that.

Realistically the car is probably at least 6 years from hitting the showroom floor so I think any speculation regarding performance is a bit premature. As for me, I'll reserve my judgement until I actually drive the next M3.

Me too. In the meantime the discussion here is both fun and engaging at least for me. Hopefully you'll have some fun here too.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

But the discussion itself is not silly, and your own reply suggests that you agree there (unless you think you are silly too). This forum is all about discussions like this and personally I find it far from silly to discuss future possibilities with fellow enthusiasts.

It's not silly discussing the subject, even though it's set in stone that the next M car will be FI, but what is silly is to say categorically no to having another because it won't be N/A or ultra high revving. I'm not saying that you fall into that camp but there have been many here stating that very fact.

Does everyone not think it's better to look at M-Division's past history of producing decent driver's cars and acknowledge that up to date they haven't let the side down. All FI will bring is a different delivery of power but the rest of the package should very much be intact.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by footie

It's not silly discussing the subject, even though it's set in stone that the next M car will be FI, but what is silly is to say categorically no to having another because it won't be N/A or ultra high revving. I'm not saying that you fall into that camp but there have been many here stating that very fact.

Yeah, I am not that strong in my opinion yet since the car is way off still, but I do find the high revving motor one of the bigger draws of the M3. Aside from the recent RS4, they are the only one of "the bunch" who had that trait. So if the car does not rev high anymore then it will lose something for me, and other competitors may become more attractive. We'll see.

As for FI, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm sure that new McLaren V8 will be absolutely amazing and as we know that is FI. I don't expect anything quite like that from BMW M, but something along those lines, toned down to 400hp+@8000RPM+, would surely be fantastic.

[footie]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yeah, I am not that strong in my opinion yet since the car is way off still, but I do find the high revving motor one of the bigger draws of the M3. Aside from the recent RS4, they are the only one of "the bunch" who had that trait. So if the car does not rev high anymore then it will lose something for me, and other competitors may become more attractive. We'll see.

As for FI, I don't really care one way or the other. I'm sure that new McLaren V8 will be absolutely amazing and as we know that is FI. I don't expect anything quite like that from BMW M, but something along those lines, toned down to 400hp+@8000RPM+, would surely be fantastic.

Just about a year prior to my purchasing the M3 I almost bought an RS4 and given the choice I rated the power delivery of that engine to be a little bit better than the M3. At that time I chose the S5 instead, mainly because the RS was on the way out and it's overall design both inside and out was dated in comparison. The funny thing is that driving the S5 nor the XFdS have I felt short changed without that extra amount of revs, in the case of the Jag it was an extra 3750rpm I was missing. I just adapted to it's power delivery and now fully enjoy it's mountain of torque in the same way I enjoyed the peak power of the M.

I think too many people here have been sucked into the marketing BS sold by different manufacturers, the belief that over 8k is a must and that anything other than 50/50 weight balance is plain awful, both of which is plainly not so. I can understand someone sticking to a certain brand because they like it's overall design and feel, there is no doubt the M3 drives differently to any other brand, in fact all Ms do but after driving most of the models that have carried that famous letter and number I have always found each model to by different in character, especially so with it's latest version and yet each time more and more people buy the proceeding model. Clearly those changes in character haven't dampened it's appeal.........so why should the next one be any different.

[Murderface]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Making a decision about whether to buy a car six years off is a bit premature. I think that goes both for people who say they will buy it and those who don't. That is partly why I didn't answer the poll.

But the discussion itself is not silly, and your own reply suggests that you agree there (unless you think you are silly too). This forum is all about discussions like this and personally I find it far from silly to discuss future possibilities with fellow enthusiasts.



The car is going to move up market regardless, I think. They will slot in a high performance 1 series (though not an "M1" or "1M", they've hinted) in below.



Righto. As I've said in one of the other half-dozen threads where the future of M and the M3 are discussed - its not just about the performance. M could design a very good M3 powered by a plugin electric series hybrid drivetrain with a 1.5L diesel I3. I'll venture to guess, anyway. So would all 75% of the people who think they are going to get an F3x buy one powered bu this hypothetical setup.? Well I don't know, but I rather doubt that.



Me too. In the meantime the discussion here is both fun and engaging at least for me. Hopefully you'll have some fun here too.

Yup, I think we're on the same page. I definitely enjoy the speculation and it is interesting to see how these cars take shape. The next M3 is going to be a different animal, that is one thing we can be sure of. Until then I'm going to drive the wheels of the one I have now.

[uhn2000]

Originally Posted by footie

All this chat of 6800rpm not being high enough is comical. It's an SUV for heaven sake, not a racing car and now to address the issue of what is a decent amount of revs for a future M car. The fact is that this figure has got progressively higher with each new model, now sitting at the 8400rpm point, but is that honestly desirable for a daily driver.

The M3 is/was for me a thrilling drive when you were 'really' on it, revving to the limit in each gear but driven remotely normally and the engine as a whole was (dare I say it) boring, it had none of the low end grunt of most other (less peaky) engines so it bags the question as to whether a car designed to carry an entire family should be equipped with this type of engine. I understand the philosophy of this for say a Z4 or even the M6 which is basically a 2+2 at best but not any of the others.

I'm very excited that BMW has decided to offer engines that will be both exciting and thrilling to drive up near their rev limit but also just as thrilling in day to day situations.

Amen...!!

[uhn2000]

This is thread is so funny. I am on the M5board and there is a lot of ripping going on about the "New M direction". M is about NO COMPROMISE, I think they have done an amazing job so far. I for one did not buy my ///M5 because it is NA and light and has SMG. I bought it becuase there is nothing like it on the market - 4 door super saloon, with an engine that goes, a heated steering wheel, and wonderful technology to BOOT!

One thing holds true, I am a city driver and honestly this car is pretty boring at city speeds. I need something that can pull from down lown and give me a bit more excitement. What it weighs, how it goes, I am not too concerned about; just give me some more excitement and more technology because at the end of the day I can only go so fast on the roads without killing someone or losing my license and I need gadgets to keep me entertained and happy.

P.S. Home run on "Idrive 2.0"

Joe

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by uhn2000

I bought it becuase there is nothing like it on the market - 4 door super saloon, with an engine that goes, a heated steering wheel, and wonderful technology to BOOT!

Audi S6 and Mercedes E63 come immediately to mind with the latter being a better example in this case. And now, we can add Jaguar XFR to the mix also.

If you had said "... a high revving engine... " then yes, I'd have agreed.

Also - heated steering wheel?

One thing holds true, I am a city driver and honestly this car is pretty boring at city speeds. I need something that can pull from down lown and give me a bit more excitement.

Sounds like you might have been better served by the E63. Honestly, you are not necessarily the customer that M has targeted in the past anyway, so I would expect a high level of indifference from you on the topic at hand. However, I agree that the new M will meet your needs very well - heated steering wheel and all.

[duk]

i am not loyal to any brand, if the car is outstanding then ill consider it

[ihyln]

Originally Posted by GatorBlue371

Lets see what they come out with before burning down the shed.



Honestly if your really worried about it, start writing letters to BMW and tell them to build the next Gen 1 Series M. That's the car that is supposed to please all the purists.

If you had any clue about BMW's history and the "M1" you'd know it is reserved for their mid engine supercar. The 1 series will never be the M1 and the only likely tag it will bear is the tii.

You do realize that simpson's avatar is supposed to be smart, right?

[McLuVan]

stick with ///M
everyone is going to hate on the new ///M's
when the e46 m3 came out people made fun of how it had 4 exhaust tips
and now it's like "classic"
don't mind what people say....

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by McLuVan

stick with ///M
everyone is going to hate on the new ///M's
when the e46 m3 came out people made fun of how it had 4 exhaust tips
and now it's like "classic"
don't mind what people say....

People keep talking about aesthetics, looks, weight, size etc. changes. It has nothing to do with the core of M philosophy which has ALWAYS been the same for the last 25 - 30 years.

One of those days, they will understand that every M car so far had the same philosophy right from the E30 M3 and M1 i.e. high-revving engines, high-output small displacement engine. It was about sound as much as it was about handling and acceleration. Every single one of those had a sonorous exhaust note.

Now it is going to be about low-revving, turbocharged engines with no special engine or exhaust note. Completely apples to oranges.

The first POS heavy tank X6 M and X5 M are the one's that came out with 6800 rpm due to turbocharging and have no exhaust or engine sound that makes your hair on the neck stand (yes, I heard it in real life). Yes, SUV are not supposed to be high-revving, but BMW will not put a high-revving engine with a twin turbo on it on the M5. Even Porsche made its 911 Turbo and GT2 low-revving. Just not going to happen since BMW cannot seem to overcome the HPFP issue in 335 that revs very low, it will be a recipe for disaster to attempt putting twin turbos and a high redline.

Funny thing is, the M car will get its a** still kicked by the GT-Rs etc. except it would have lost its identity that made it so unique and special.

Maximum redline on M cars going forward will be 6700 - 7000 rpm. You can write it down somewhere.

[mapezzul]

You all have me laughing here... ///M is ///M and many of the same guys that worked on the original E30 ///M3 are still doing there thing there. Did you know that the X5 ///M with its enormous panoramic roof has more lateral rigidity than an E30 ///M3 with a FULL cage?

These guys do not mess around, they set lofty goals and figure out the best way of getting there. They look at things from different angles and views to create a product that fits the majority of its customers. The thing people forget is that the goal for BMW and ///M is to design things that work extremely well on the street and the track as well as be safe and efficient.

Drive a competitors vehicle and you will always find that while it does some things well it is not as complete as the ///M version. Sure they could make a full on race car (wait they already do that and it is about $120k in 3 series form) that no one would be able to drive on the majority of US streets. Like driving a Lotus, or in some cases a Porsche.

We are at a time and place that requires lots of changes for automobiles; BMW has not placed all of its eggs in one basic like some and have different solutions for different products, this includes using the same items to produce different results.

///M has not sold out, the only ones that have sold out are enthusiasts; ///M has always been about innovation- they threw a race motor in a 4 door sedan, they produced a 1500 hp (turbo) 1.5l motor that won in F1. Enthusiasts forget these things and think about the "glory" in their own opinion. Remember the "Flying Brick", how about the 635CSI or even the 850csi though not badged an ///M it was developed by them- they will not use the badge just for the sake of using the badge they have standards and they are high. The X5 and X6 versions are polarizing to many but they really are ///M vehicles and are simply amazing.

To quote Audi: Never quit. Never do the expected. Never rest on your laurels. Never think great is good enough. Never follow.

BMW sort of started that trend and I think they will continue.... as they are independent and have to otherwise they are just like everyone else.

Have some faith in ///M, they are the best at what they do- they have some of the originals there and fresh talent working on new technologies. They are developing some things that will make it to the rest of the BMW line as well (adaptive suspension being one).


-M

[McLuVan]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

People keep talking about aesthetics, looks, weight, size etc. changes. It has nothing to do with the core of M philosophy which has ALWAYS been the same for the last 25 - 30 years.

One of those days, they will understand that every M car so far had the same philosophy right from the E30 M3 and M1 i.e. high-revving engines, high-output small displacement engine. It was about sound as much as it was about handling and acceleration. Every single one of those had a sonorous exhaust note.

Now it is going to be about low-revving, turbocharged engines with no special engine or exhaust note. Completely apples to oranges.

The first POS heavy tank X6 M and X5 M are the one's that came out with 6800 rpm due to turbocharging and have no exhaust or engine sound that makes your hair on the neck stand (yes, I heard it in real life). Yes, SUV are not supposed to be high-revving, but BMW will not put a high-revving engine with a twin turbo on it on the M5. Even Porsche made its 911 Turbo and GT2 low-revving. Just not going to happen since BMW cannot seem to overcome the HPFP issue in 335 that revs very low, it will be a recipe for disaster to attempt putting twin turbos and a high redline.

Funny thing is, the M car will get its a** still kicked by the GT-Rs etc. except it would have lost its identity that made it so unique and special.

Maximum redline on M cars going forward will be 6700 - 7000 rpm. You can write it down somewhere.

hmmm
you're right there....
the philosophy HAS changed I guess....
that redline sounds like crap already..

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Funny thing is, the M car will get its a** still kicked by the GT-Rs etc. except it would have lost its identity that made it so unique and special.

You can not compare a car that has more development costs in it than some brands spend on all their cars to an ///M car.

The GT-R is so race specific and is so supported by all the other cars in the lineup it is used as a marketing tool, it is not engaging and is horrible to drive on the street. Also, if you lose the transmission or the engine both will need to be replaced- sounds great!

///M has not lost its identity, it has been creating high performance versions of mass produced vehicles. It does not produce one off race cars that have nothing to do with the rest of the lineup. ///M did not even produce the fabled ///M1, that was outsourced to Italy, and that inline 6 used in it and had a 6700 RPM in street guise- so it looks like even the modern turbo cars can compete with that.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

Have some faith in ///M, they are the best at what they do- they have some of the originals there and fresh talent working on new technologies. They are developing some things that will make it to the rest of the BMW line as well (adaptive suspension being one).


-M

When kept on a tight leash even masterminds can only do so much. I still have faith however.


Best regards,
south