DSG or Manual

[Garrett]

Originally Posted by esquire

1)stick shift for balance? - using the stickshift to somehow balance yourself is by no means common practice, and places you in a vast minority of people. more importantly though, you can just as easily rest your body weight on the dct/smg gear lever as you could a stickshift - either one will give you the support you're looking for (which of course will be close to zero). further as a matter of common sense, resting your body weight on any mechanism attached to the transmission is a poor idea.

2) the f1 issue - bmw M has always been steeped in the racing tradition. but even coming from that sort of ancestry, bmw has been anything but ostentatious about the new M3's ties to the F1 lineage. the printed collateral we've seen thusfar from bmw on the new M3 emphasizes much more the performance benefits of the DCT transmission, than its F1 lineage. probably because when it comes to options, the end consumer's primary concern is a palpable benefit - here performance - rather than something as tangential and attenuated as a car's lineage. read through these enthusiast forums, and you'll find that the people who've voiced an interest in purchasing the DCT transmission have placed very little (if any) emphasis on the transmission's F1 lineage as part of their decision. in fact for the most part, their interest was usually sparked by performance gains or ease of use.

3) the M3's audience - i think you'll find that your demographic presumptions are just that... presumptive. here in the southern california area there is a disproportionately high number of M's than there is in most other parts of the world. in markets as M concentrated as the orange, los angeles, and san diego counties you'll find that not only are M cars not as much of a rarity, but also that many of them are driven by those much younger than your presumed 40-50 year+ demographic. here in so cal, there are a surprising number of 20 somethings who not only own their own M3's but have paid for them themselves. I count myself amongst this 20 year old demographic having purchased an M3 in the past, and will again be doing so upon the release of the e92 M3, well before my 30th. More importantly though... i'm not the exception to the rule... many of my friends all of whom are in there 20-somethings here in southern california, own M or AMG cars (which they've paid for with their own money). off the cuff, it seems to me that the M5 and M6 are more targeted to your 40 year demo+ than the M3 whose sportier look and feel lends itself to a slightly more youthful audience.

maybe in you future responses you can do us all a favor and refrain from becoming immediately insulting.

I think he was talking about the "balance" you feel when driving with a stick and not nec using the shift knob as a point of physically balancing himself..!

BMW does taut their Formula1 heritage, just look at any Brochure


Southern Cal does not mirror or mimick the rest of the world/country. Matter of fact I have traveled to Southern Cal on many occasions and during pub crawls and in general conversation of the locals I was surprised to learn that many of the people in your area are jaded and disconnected from the "real world". I visited one of my Guildmates buddies house and it was BEAUTIFUL. He had 2 pool tables a nice Mercedes and all the looks of a millionaire. Yet, later I found out he made less than 100k a year.

I know understand how alot of people live in debt, but the fact does remain...

... Not many 20 year olds make 100K a year and own 50K+ cars. Not many at all..!






-Garrett

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Caravello

I mean it when I say, I like the feeling of baalnce it gives me to have something to hold onto. It's not that I put weight onto it and hold it for dear life, but it helps me at least feel like I am more into the car.

Well as with everthing, to each their own. Just because we drive differently doesn't mean you don't get a lot of enjoyment from some aspect of your driving.

Originally Posted by Caravello

Anyway, glad there are no hard feelings. And look forward to seeing your pics of your new M3 when you get it. I will be going for the Blue coupe.

Absolutely not. I like to discuss, debate and always keep things on good terms and you are obviosuly the same. Enjoy the board! My plans are for Space Gray coupe. Cheers.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Epacy

Not true. There has been no printed information about the performance benefits of the DCT tranny.

Sure BMW is tight lipped but they are not developing the tranny. Maybe they are spec-ing, developing or tweaking the software, but that would be about it. The essence of the tranny will be the same whether it is in a VW or BMW. There is simply no denying the plethora of benefits of DSG/DCT.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Sure BMW is tight lipped but they are not developing the tranny. Maybe they are spec-ing, developing or tweaking the software, but that would be about it. The essence of the tranny will be the same whether it is in a VW or BMW. There is simply no denying the plethora of benefits of DSG/DCT.

That's quite interesting, the M-DCT is a collaboration between BMW and Getrag. Getrag does the "hardware", BMW itself develops the software part.

Best regards, south

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Garrett

Southern Cal does not mirror or mimick the rest of the world/country.

absolutely agree with you here. southern california is by no means representative of the rest of the world... but because there is such a disproportionately high number of M's here, the statistics regarding age of ownership (for an M car) are skewed lower than they would if the southern california demographic were not included.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by southlight

That's quite interesting, the M-DCT is a collaboration between BMW and Getrag. Getrag does the "hardware", BMW itself develops the software part.

Best regards, south

I would not go so far as to claim BMW will actually "develop" the software but clearly the software is a huge part of what will distinguish a DCT in one vehicle vs. another. DCT can me made mild or wild, depending on software. I suspect it is more likely they will work closely with Getrag to give a spec. for the software rather than actually be responsible for it directly. Surely the transmission software needs to be tightly integrated with the engine control software and other vehicle functions. The software may reside on a transmission specific computing hardware/controller or on BMWs "main CPU". It is really a "system integration" type of task. Who knows though how it will be accomplished, I'm not a BMW insider.

[13eastie]

I'm assuming (perhaps) incorrectly that the experience will be similar to DSG.

I've always driven manuals and do not really like autos. I'm at the front of the waiting list for a 6MT, but hesitating about whether to wait for the DSG.

I worried I will miss having a clutch pedal, but can see the potential for fun (and convenience) with the DSG.

Is the DCT experience persuasive one way or the other?

Thanks for any info - I really need to put this one to bed and start worrying about something else

[joema]

Originally Posted by 13eastie

I'm assuming (perhaps) incorrectly that the experience will be similar to DSG...I've always driven manuals and do not really like autos.

There's a natural tendency to equate the upcoming M-DCT with VW/Audi DSG systems tuned for family passenger cars. As you said, this is likely incorrect.

Depending on tuning and design, the driver experience from dual-clutch transmissions can range from "mild" to "wild". Dual clutch transmissions are being adopted in Formula One due to the performance advantage (see below). They call it the "seamless transmission", but it's really a dual-clutch system similar to DSG/DCT.

It seems very likely the e90 M3 driver experience using M-DCT will be similar to SMG III, but smoother/faster upshifts. It won't be like a sluggish paddle-shifted automatic.

There will likely be various driver-selectable shift modes, with the sportier modes being fimer/faster at the expense of smoothness.

My view is if paddle-shifted dual-clutch transmissions are good enough for F1, it's good enough for me.

http://www.autoracing1.com/rumors.as...&dend=05/10/06

Renault, Red Bull, to join 'seamless' club (GMM) Renault and Red Bull are next in line to produce 'seamless shift' gearboxes, as the technology becomes commonplace in formula one.

Ferrari and BMW-Sauber are also hard at work in designing versions, following the use of the first models at actual grands prix by McLaren, Honda and Williams.

A 'seamless' 'box is believed to be worth several tenths of a second per lap, with drivers able to change gear without the momentary 'blip' in power.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by joema

There's a natural tendency to equate the upcoming M-DCT with VW/Audi DSG systems tuned for family passenger cars. As you said, this is likely incorrect.

The VW GTI is hardly a family/passenger car. That being said (as stated many times before) DCT in both auto and manual mode will offer great flexibility via software, the software will be an absolutely key component.

Originally Posted by joema

A 'seamless' 'box is believed to be worth several tenths of a second per lap, with drivers able to change gear without the momentary 'blip' in power.

Shouldn't that be closer to the savings per shift x number of upshifts under power? I would estimate, this would equate to seconds, rather than tenths of seconds.

[JEllis]

I think after tracking this thread for a while there needs to be a bottom line here.

1. The M3 equiped with the M-DCT is going to be a quicker car than the 6MT. The M-DCT will also make it easier to go fast since you dont have to worry about trying to shift super fast.

2. Lets be honest, most people will drive the M-DCT in auto mode unless you go to the track or get bored on day. Even for 1/4mi runs the auto mode will be better suited due to the computers calculated shift points. This is the reason why the faster 335i 1/4mi times posted on this board were from auto/step trannies (I realize there are some good rowers out there that have made some good times with their 6MT).

3. 6MT vs. M-DCT is going to be drivers challenge on a road course. In reality 10% of owners will actually seriously track there E92 M3 and probably only 10% of those people are good enough so that M-DCT with its "F1 Technology" will make a difference.

4. Most people that opt for the M-DCT are going to be owners that either dont want to worry about a clutch pedal or just like the idea of having the latest and greatest in their M. A small majority, and I mean very small, can honestly say they are buying M-DCT so they can get faster track times.

5. Reasons to get the 6MT version-
-No wait time
-Cheaper
-You actually enjoy rowing through the gears

Just so you guys dont think I am a fanboy either way-

I think I fall into the category of the guy that likes the idea of not having to be super fast or super smooth when rowing through the gears when I am trying to show an RS4 my tail lights. There is comfort in the fact that computer is calculating exactly where I need to shift and I all I need to do is hold my foot down. I also like the idea of having "F1 tech" in my M3. They hooked me that, I realize its probably mostly propaganda BS.

However, I also am I guy that likes rowing through the gears. There is a certain tactile feel added when you have to manually shift through gears even during everyday driving. I enjoy holding the clutch pedal in and revving my engine from time to time (if this is wrong then I dont want to be right). I am not sure I will be willing to pay the extra money for the M-DCT.

So I am still on the fence.

Jason

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by JEllis

3. 6MT vs. M-DCT is going to be drivers challenge on a road course. In reality 10% of owners will actually seriously track there E92 M3 and probably only 10% of those people are good enough so that M-DCT with its "F1 Technology" will make a difference.

4. Most people that opt for the M-DCT are going to be owners that either dont want to worry about a clutch pedal or just like the idea of having the latest and greatest in their M. A small majority, and I mean very small, can honestly say they are buying M-DCT so they can get faster track times.

QFT.

Heck, these should have been points 1 and 2.

I enjoy holding the clutch pedal in and revving my engine from time to time (if this is wrong then I dont want to be right).

Ditto on that one. But at least with DCT/DSG/SMG you can still throw the car into neutral to achieve this, with some quick clicks on the paddle. In a true automatic equipped car, even if you have paddles you still actually have to change the shift mode to "auto" to find neutral. Too much hassle to be worth it.

But let me add one other thing to the pro-DCT debate. To me, the single biggest reason to go with a clutchless manual transmission would be the automatic rev-matches on downshift. Don't get me wrong, I love to do the pre-revving myself. But even after years of driving manual I am still by no means perfect (or even good) at pulling rev-matched, doubled-clutched, heel-toe downshifts. I can do everything pretty darn well until you throw in the heel toe - then it all falls apart. Forget it. I usually just skip the break and let the engine slow me down. But that limits your approach speed somewhat. And trying to manage all that while additionally having to steer the car with one hand is really tough. I have never had the chance to flog an SMG M3 but I am pretty convinced after 4 years of driving my manual equipped M3 that I could be much more aggressive, much more consistently, through my favorite corners and S-turns with a clutchless transmission.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Shouldn't that be closer to the savings per shift x number of upshifts under power? I would estimate, this would equate to seconds, rather than tenths of seconds.

I think he's referring to F1 where the new seamless transmissions are able to save several tenths per lap (compared to last year's sequential boxes).

Best regards, south

[joema]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

...To me, the single biggest reason to go with a clutchless manual transmission would be the automatic rev-matches on downshift...even after years of driving manual I am still by no means perfect (or even good) at pulling rev-matched, doubled-clutched, heel-toe downshifts. I can do everything pretty darn well until you throw in the heel toe - then it all falls apart....

Exactly right. Few people can do perfect rev matched heel-toe downshifts -- IOW match revs perfectly when downshifting while SIMULTANEOUSLY braking. SMG/DCT can do this perfectly every time.

That's for the enthusiasts. For those who will drive their M-DCT M3 in "A" mode all the time, the smoother upshifts are a benefit.

So whether the average driver, enthusiast, or hard-core track guy, it seems M-DCT has advantages over both SMG and manual.

Re "several tenths per lap", yes there are various estimates of lap time savings in F1 from DCT-style transmissions. Keep in mind the F1 SMG-style transmissions are very aggressive, much more than BMW SMG in the most sporty mode. They probably shift a lot faster, thus lowering the relative advantage of DCT (which is still considerable).

F1 drivers say each "SMG" upshift is like getting hit with a jackhammer in the back. By contrast those running the Williams "seamless" transmission (DCT-type) say it's much smoother and more comfortable.

I figure if DCT is good enough for the fastest cars and best drivers on earth, it's probably good enough for me.

[simonabc1]

My First E46 M3 was manual and my second one was an SMG. It took a little while to get used to it... a test drive is NO WHERE near enough. You need a good couple of weeks, but once you're with it...FANTASTIC!! Wouldn't go back to the manual version.
I have the new M3 on order for sep/oct this year but i've just been informed by my dealer that the smg versions won't be available until Feb 08 so... i think i'd rather wait for the SMG.