BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > General M3 Forum (E90 + E92 + E93)
 
EXXEL Distributions
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-12-2008, 08:23 AM   #67
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
1487
Rep
6,755
Posts

Drives: X3M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlue View Post
8. What is the actual shift time of M-DCT in S6 mode (in milliseconds)?
They don't give them a time, however it's so instantaneous that they had to build some feel into it so it didn't feel like a CVT transmission. "It just goes, it's so fast"
That's probably about the best answer you're gonna get. With two input shafts and two clutches, during a shift, one clutch is engaging before the other one is disengaged. To quote a "shift time" you would have to define what is the beginning and what is the end. In the world of double input shaft and double clutch, that is a grey area and tough to define. By some definitions, it could be said the shift time is zero. If you define it by the time it takes to go from clutch fully engaged to clutch fully engaged, then the number will be smaller than the SMG or any conventional manual, which is great, but that doesn't give the DCT the full credit it deserves for the fact that no matter how small the number is for an SMG, there is some amount of time where there is zero torque being applied. With the DCT that never happens... there is never a point where there is zero torque. So just comparing some definition of shift time in milliseconds, even though the DCT will definitely compare favorably, doesn't give it the full credit it deserves.
So you say there should be no information on the real shift times because that gave the DCT not enough credit?


Best regards, south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 08:44 AM   #68
umwolverine
Second Lieutenant
umwolverine's Avatar
9
Rep
274
Posts

Drives: 2008 Jerez M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for all the effort putting this in. Can't wait for the rest.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 09:46 AM   #69
monsta
Brigadier General
monsta's Avatar
United_States
217
Rep
3,593
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bergen County, NJ/Y.O, NY

iTrader: (2)

great job guys...can't wait to see the video...
__________________

'08 E92 M3 6MT | IB | FR | RAC RG63's | VRS Ti Exhaust | Fabspeed HFC & Xpipe
'09 X5 35d SG/SB
'11 X3 28i AW/CN/FW (wife's car
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 10:06 AM   #70
rai
Captain
rai's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
649
Posts

Drives: M3 coupe with DCT
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: maryland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
4. Can we please get Comfort Access as a separate option for non ZTP cars? MY2009?
Probably not

5. Any chance MDM will be available as either a new standard feature, or a stand-alone option?
He can't put in the car without I-drive. If he makes I-drive standard then there's a big jump in price and then he's got a whole stack of people who complain they don't want I-drive in the car and they won't buy it. He has 25 or 30% of the people won't buy the car with I-drive so he won't make it standard.
great info

these two answers are quite evasive, I mean he should just say they want to pump the price. They don't want people ordering a non-i-drive car so they make CA and MDM which have nothing to do with i-drive part of the package. (M-button as well tho that could have more to do with i-drive since it may need more to control than just one button).

We already have a button for stability control, it would be nothing to have MDM as the middle setting. Also we already have a start button CA can be an option without i-drive on every other 3-series.


thanks for the candid conversation, but as is clear the real aswer is:

We want the price to be as high as possible (ie. technology package at least) so we tied premium sound, CA and MDM to that leading people to spend at a minimum $60K+ for a car with MDM or CA.

I'm sure many people end up with the technology package by default since it's the only way to get CA and MDM.

Last edited by rai; 04-12-2008 at 10:21 AM..
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 10:33 AM   #71
MI6
The World is Not Enough
MI6's Avatar
United_States
166
Rep
1,088
Posts

Drives: Aston DBS-R
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Skyfall

iTrader: (0)

Priority One color ordering available......

Whoo hoo!

Black Sapphire Metallic here I come..
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 10:47 AM   #72
skierman64
Brigadier General
skierman64's Avatar
United_States
125
Rep
3,071
Posts

Drives: E92M3-E46M3-E46Wagon-E89Z4-E36
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Greater St Louis Metro area

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1994 325is Race Car  [0.00]
2011 BMW Z4  [0.00]
1998 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
2008 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
Update: I loaded all my videos from the meeting to google videos last night, but now about 12 hours later it's showing all 4 of my videos as being only 2 seconds long.

I might have to reload them all.

Any suggestions?
__________________
Invest Wisely...The best mod for your money?? BMWCCA high performance driver's school. The mod that lasts a lifetime and improves the performance of any car you drive[/LEFT]
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:10 AM   #73
oneginee
Banned
16
Rep
416
Posts

Drives: GT3 RS
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SE

iTrader: (0)

Thanks that was moderately interesting (would have been better to have an M3 engineer answer most questions).

"The E92 seat has at least 6-8 motors in it, making it quite a heavy seat. The front seats alone may add 100lbs to the E92."

Woa. One mod that comes to mind is to lock the seats in your prefered position then remove the motors. I am sure these motors are quite heavy. Anyone else thought the same ?


"BUTT ugly orange reflectors?" I ACTUALLY LIKE the position of these reflectors they add dimension to the 3/4 front.


" Do you know about the issue with the sale of a M3 on Ebay from the dealer in Lincoln, NE? Any comments?
He knows all about it. BMW USA was very involved. Bottom Line, he said customer was having problem getting financing and was trying to get the dealer to drop the price below what was agreed to on Ebay"

that is BS, I am sure that dealer tried to get more money from financing when he could not walk out of the binding auction deal.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:17 AM   #74
kenwelch
Lieutenant
United_States
96
Rep
545
Posts

Drives: 2008 E92 M3 M-DCT & 2017 440GC
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticBlue View Post
8. What is the actual shift time of M-DCT in S6 mode (in milliseconds)?
They don't give them a time, however it's so instantaneous that they had to build some feel into it so it didn't feel like a CVT transmission. "It just goes, it's so fast"
That's probably about the best answer you're gonna get. With two input shafts and two clutches, during a shift, one clutch is engaging before the other one is disengaged. To quote a "shift time" you would have to define what is the beginning and what is the end. In the world of double input shaft and double clutch, that is a grey area and tough to define. By some definitions, it could be said the shift time is zero. If you define it by the time it takes to go from clutch fully engaged to clutch fully engaged, then the number will be smaller than the SMG or any conventional manual, which is great, but that doesn't give the DCT the full credit it deserves for the fact that no matter how small the number is for an SMG, there is some amount of time where there is zero torque being applied. With the DCT that never happens... there is never a point where there is zero torque. So just comparing some definition of shift time in milliseconds, even though the DCT will definitely compare favorably, doesn't give it the full credit it deserves.
It might feel as though there is "never a point where there is zero torque", but there must be a very small amount of time that both gear ratios are NOT connected to the engine. If you are beginning to disengage the clutch for one gear ratio while the next gear ratio is being engaged there is only one acceptable option...they cannot be connected to the engine at the same time.

If two gear ratios are connected at the same time (shift overlap) then the clutches must slip which causes unnecessary wear and heat. If both ratios are actually connected (engaged) at the same time then the output shaft (drive shaft) will be locked and cause the drive wheels to lock (like having an automatic trans. car in Park). If the vehicle is moving when the driveshaft locks the tires will chirp (skid) or the weakest power train link will break. Manual transmissions vehicles use a shift interlock to prevent two gear ratios from being selected at the same time. Automatic transmission vehicles have a torque converter that allows slippage.

Bottom line: You must have some time when both gears are not engaged (connected) to the engine. BMW likely designed in some “zero torque time” to prevent M-DCT owners from have early clutch failures. The wet clutch design with plenty of cooling should help also.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:23 AM   #75
ersin
Brigadier General
ersin's Avatar
United_States
124
Rep
4,145
Posts

Drives: 17 YMB F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I just was reading another thread and I remembered something Larry said last night. He said the car handles better on the 18" wheels than on the 19s. Something to do with a taller sidewall allowing the tire to conform to the road surface better thus producing more grip.

I found this surprising yet encouraging since I'll have 18s on my car.
Interesting. Normally it's the other way around. The bigger wheels give better handling precisely because the have a shorter sidewall -- less flex. Of course, that's not the only reason for bigger wheels. Most people think they look better. Thanks.
__________________
2017 F80 YMB.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:29 AM   #76
ersin
Brigadier General
ersin's Avatar
United_States
124
Rep
4,145
Posts

Drives: 17 YMB F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenwelch View Post
It might feel as though there is "never a point where there is zero torque", but there must be a very small amount of time that both gear ratios are NOT connected to the engine. If you are beginning to disengage the clutch for one gear ratio while the next gear ratio is being engaged there is only one acceptable option...they cannot be connected to the engine at the same time.

If two gear ratios are connected at the same time (shift overlap) then the clutches must slip which causes unnecessary wear and heat. If both ratios are actually connected (engaged) at the same time then the output shaft (drive shaft) will be locked and cause the drive wheels to lock (like having an automatic trans. car in Park). If the vehicle is moving when the driveshaft locks the tires will chirp (skid) or the weakest power train link will break. Manual transmissions vehicles use a shift interlock to prevent two gear ratios from being selected at the same time. Automatic transmission vehicles have a torque converter that allows slippage.

Bottom line: You must have some time when both gears are not engaged (connected) to the engine. BMW likely designed in some “zero torque time” to prevent M-DCT owners from have early clutch failures. The wet clutch design with plenty of cooling should help also.
I suppose theoretically you could have no zero torque time (ZTT). Practically though, you will have ZTT. I doubt you could measure it without sophisticated measuring equipment and certainly could not feel it. And you bet there will be slip. Practically speaking, you always have slip. It's a matter of how much. Even the wheels slip. Maybe that's why the DCT clutch is a wet clutch.

Point here though is that practically speaking, you can't feel, and would have a hard time measuring ZTT. I believe the DCT is that good. Cheers.
__________________
2017 F80 YMB.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:44 AM   #77
RandyB
Lieutenant Colonel
RandyB's Avatar
United_States
20
Rep
1,504
Posts

Drives: '03 330i, '09 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

I bet turn in is more crisp with the 19s though, and probably helps the steering feel somewhat better connected to the road.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:45 AM   #78
rmmcdaniel
Second Lieutenant
7
Rep
247
Posts

Drives: '09 E90 M3
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Chicago & SF

iTrader: (0)

Thanks Skierman, I really appreciate the effort you put into this. And thanks to Mr. Koch for his answers/insight as well as reading this forum.
__________________
2009 E90 M3 - Silverstone/Fox Red - M-DCT, CW, PP, TP, 19", Moonroof, Sunshades, PDC, Enhanced Prem Sound, HD Radio, Sat, iPod, Smartphone Integration
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:45 AM   #79
apw2607
Colonel
575
Rep
2,099
Posts

Drives: 2024 X5 50e M-Sport
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: West Coast, USA

iTrader: (0)

Thanks for taking the time to compile a list of questions and answers. Very interesting reading.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 11:55 AM   #80
skierman64
Brigadier General
skierman64's Avatar
United_States
125
Rep
3,071
Posts

Drives: E92M3-E46M3-E46Wagon-E89Z4-E36
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Greater St Louis Metro area

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
1994 325is Race Car  [0.00]
2011 BMW Z4  [0.00]
1998 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
2008 M3 Coupe  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
Thanks that was moderately interesting (would have been better to have an M3 engineer answer most questions).
I'd probably be pretty tough getting a BMW engineer available to talk to customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
"The E92 seat has at least 6-8 motors in it, making it quite a heavy seat. The front seats alone may add 100lbs to the E92."

Woa. One mod that comes to mind is to lock the seats in your prefered position then remove the motors. I am sure these motors are quite heavy. Anyone else thought the same ?
Seems like it might be easier just to install some aftermarket racing seats than modify the existing seat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneginee View Post
"BUTT ugly orange reflectors?" I ACTUALLY LIKE the position of these reflectors they add dimension to the 3/4 front.
You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
__________________
Invest Wisely...The best mod for your money?? BMWCCA high performance driver's school. The mod that lasts a lifetime and improves the performance of any car you drive[/LEFT]
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 12:01 PM   #81
ersin
Brigadier General
ersin's Avatar
United_States
124
Rep
4,145
Posts

Drives: 17 YMB F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I'd probably be pretty tough getting a BMW engineer available to talk to customers.

Seems like it might be easier just to install some aftermarket racing seats than modify the existing seat.

You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
Every company I have experience with keeps their engineers locked up and away from the customer. So, chances of that happening are zero and none.

If you install after-market seats then you either must deal with the seat upholstery not matching the rest of the interior, or get a custom upholstery job for them. Of course, it's not so much a problem if you have black.

Yes, he is the only person in the whole world who actually likes the reflectors.
__________________
2017 F80 YMB.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 01:12 PM   #82
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rai View Post
these two answers are quite evasive, I mean he should just say they want to pump the price.
That rationale doesn't fully explain it to me. They could easily make both Navigation and EDC only available as part of ZTP also if they really wanted to force more people to get the package. In fact, I would venture to guess that a large percentage of non-ZTP cars will still include EDC. If I am right then this means that they could possibly have upsold many of these buyers to ZTP by not allowing EDC as an ad hoc option. The same applies to Nav, but to a much smaller number of customers probably. But in those few cases though, the upsell would have likely been quite easy since Nav is already over half the cost of ZTP anyway.

I think the main reason that stand-alone CA is not available is that BMW NA thinks that few people without ZTP would want it. Its possible that they even have survey data to back this up. And if no one orders it - then why clutter up the options list? Its similar to how headlight washers are not available standalone. Probably almost no one would order it that way. But in this case I really would order stand alone CA and I suspect there are quite a few of those 25-30% that Larry mentions who don't want iDrive that would actually like to have CA also. Hopefully enough of us complain to get them to change their minds.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 01:53 PM   #83
rai
Captain
rai's Avatar
United_States
55
Rep
649
Posts

Drives: M3 coupe with DCT
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: maryland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
That rationale doesn't fully explain it to me. They could easily make both Navigation and EDC only available as part of ZTP also if they really wanted to force more people to get the package. In fact, I would venture to guess that a large percentage of non-ZTP cars will still include EDC. If I am right then this means that they could possibly have upsold many of these buyers to ZTP by not allowing EDC as an ad hoc option. The same applies to Nav, but to a much smaller number of customers probably. But in those few cases though, the upsell would have likely been quite easy since Nav is already over half the cost of ZTP anyway.

I think the main reason that stand-alone CA is not available is that BMW NA thinks that few people without ZTP would want it. Its possible that they even have survey data to back this up. And if no one orders it - then why clutter up the options list? Its similar to how headlight washers are not available standalone. Probably almost no one would order it that way. But in this case I really would order stand alone CA and I suspect there are quite a few of those 25-30% that Larry mentions who don't want iDrive that would actually like to have CA also. Hopefully enough of us complain to get them to change their minds.
good points, but with computers with ordering and manufacturing these days (IMO) it's not a bad thing to have more choices such as Mini where everything is an option but can also be in a money saving package.

I do not see how having CA being an option by itself is any different than having EDC or heated seats be an option. I mean it's one thing. How hard can it be to have one more choice?

As for the MDM that (IMO) is totally in the technology package to get people to buy technology package. There is a button for the stability control that could be off/no or MDM.--------------- unless maybe MDM requires EDC (for example) to function which does not seem to be the case since wouldn't they it have been said that way?

I will say, technology package is a good value meaning if you are willing to say CA + MDM + M-button (together) are worth $1K and EDC is worth $1K that's $2K making i-drive and navi cost just $1250 which is a good deal assuming you don't mind i-drive and nav.

I am not against or for i-drive. I guess it's something I will live with or something I will love but the idea that I HAVE to buy i-drive to get CA just doesn't make any sense. IMO with the key + push-button (two steps) if you don't have CA it just seems that something like CA should not cost a bit to make (since the hardware start button is already there) so IMO the M-car should have CA standard if anything.

I understand if it's an option that's more profit for BMW but it does seem the 'low price' of the base is not realistic for most people so we are seeing $70K M3s more common than anything else.

My point being psychologically if we are now getting Tech package (almost forced option) and most people will get leather + trim upgrade so premium package is going to be very common and the way the base stereo lesser than the L7 in the 335i many will get premuim sound since it's $66K so what's another $1900?
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 02:07 PM   #84
oneginee
Banned
16
Rep
416
Posts

Drives: GT3 RS
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SE

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
I'd probably be pretty tough getting a BMW engineer available to talk to customers. .

Yeah I know it is the same in any industry. Information gets filtered by marketing. The upper management usually does not understand sh*t when it comes to technical discussions. It is not that they are evasive it is outside their league.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
I only like the reflectors on AW and JBK and JRZBK

My preference is MR tough. There won't be many of these around.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 02:38 PM   #85
hakaida442
First Lieutenant
hakaida442's Avatar
3
Rep
371
Posts

Drives: 11 Porsche 911 Carrera GTS
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rai View Post
good points, but with computers with ordering and manufacturing these days (IMO) it's not a bad thing to have more choices such as Mini where everything is an option but can also be in a money saving package.

I do not see how having CA being an option by itself is any different than having EDC or heated seats be an option. I mean it's one thing. How hard can it be to have one more choice?

As for the MDM that (IMO) is totally in the technology package to get people to buy technology package. There is a button for the stability control that could be off/no or MDM.--------------- unless maybe MDM requires EDC (for example) to function which does not seem to be the case since wouldn't they it have been said that way?

I will say, technology package is a good value meaning if you are willing to say CA + MDM + M-button (together) are worth $1K and EDC is worth $1K that's $2K making i-drive and navi cost just $1250 which is a good deal assuming you don't mind i-drive and nav.

I am not against or for i-drive. I guess it's something I will live with or something I will love but the idea that I HAVE to buy i-drive to get CA just doesn't make any sense. IMO with the key + push-button (two steps) if you don't have CA it just seems that something like CA should not cost a bit to make (since the hardware start button is already there) so IMO the M-car should have CA standard if anything.

I understand if it's an option that's more profit for BMW but it does seem the 'low price' of the base is not realistic for most people so we are seeing $70K M3s more common than anything else.

My point being psychologically if we are now getting Tech package (almost forced option) and most people will get leather + trim upgrade so premium package is going to be very common and the way the base stereo lesser than the L7 in the 335i many will get premuim sound since it's $66K so what's another $1900?
I agree that tech package is almost a forced option. CA and M dynamic mode should be available seperately. dynamic mode should be stock too. whats so hard about having TC setting for off/on/m dynamic mode. Makes no sense to me.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 03:36 PM   #86
RandyB
Lieutenant Colonel
RandyB's Avatar
United_States
20
Rep
1,504
Posts

Drives: '03 330i, '09 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

I like the reflectors as well - they don't bother me anymore. They look good on the AW cars especially. I won't be painting mine in the same way that I won't be painting my tail lights. They add color to the car.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 04:07 PM   #87
Hada318i
Motorin'
United_States
0
Rep
29
Posts

Drives: Cement Truck
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orlando

iTrader: (0)

Question Laguna Blue

So??? Laguna Blue is going to be a custom color instead of a standard color?
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2008, 04:12 PM   #88
Mini Me
Enlisted Member
10
Rep
46
Posts

Drives: Porsche Cayman S PDK
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Charleston, SC

iTrader: (0)

Orange Reflector Club

Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
You're the first person that I've seen that actually like the front reflectors. I'm curious if anyone else actually likes them out there who has just never spoken up.
I love those reflectors, too! I grew up in Europe and -as a child- used to paint orange and red side reflectors onto car mag photos. I guess we could form an "orange reflector club"...

Thanks for your awesome work skierman64, much appreciated!

Tamas

Last edited by Mini Me; 04-12-2008 at 08:37 PM..
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:10 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST