Official S65 Bearing Specification/Clearance Wiki

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I think the two articles are one in the same because the former references the latter as the source. I looked for links to the actual data and couldn't find any. Since the article came from the UK, I was wondering if this was a UK only poll, or world-wide. At the very least, it looks to be EU if not UK centric (lack of US autos on the list). I will venture to guess their high octane gas in the EU/UK must be causing engine failures and leading BMW to be 7th from the bottom of the list for engine reliability. Maybe they need to switch to low octane gas like the US so they can get the higher reliability from BMW that we see on this forum.

I loved the main article title.

German cars 'among worst for engine failures'

Yes, it is a UK-only study by a company which provides warranties on cars.

Pat

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Swamp may be a skeptic and even though he thinks I'm off my rocker calling this journal clearance ratio an industry common best practice, in spite of being asked many times, he's yet to provide any examples that say otherwise.

No idea where you are getting this. There certainly are standards as to ratio of clearance size to journal size. The older S65 bearings are slightly tighter than this spec (without the extra 0.0005") and the newer bearings are within the spec (using the smaller spec of 0.00075 in/in and even counting the extra 0.0005). I'm also don't believe you've asked me many times for counter examples to this standard.

[B767capt]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Can you provide a link so I can see this in context?

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...r-own-s85.html

post #26

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by catpat8000

Yes, it is a UK-only study by a company which provides warranties on cars.

Pretty darn narrowly focused. Not only 1 country but also 1 aftermarket warranty provider... And who knows what range of car model years and mileage is included. We also don't know if this is catastrophic failures only. Finally, unless all of the S65 failures have happened in one year (which I doubt) we can not compare to these ANNUAL failure rates. Regardless, I fully agree with your overall point that the numbers here for the S65 can be loosely compared to these and it does indeed make the S65 look quite good.

If the wear we've observed in some of these cases is at all typical across most engines, it means that the rate is likely to increase significantly as more and more cars get up into higher mileage and beyond 100k mi. Perhaps stated more clearly this might only be an issue with intermediate and high mileage cars as opposed to many other cars which can have bearings that look new after 300k mi.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by regular guy

There's another shock. Engines documented with proper clearance and/or thinner oils are more reliable than BMW.

Really? Clearances and oils will vary by year make and model. You wouldn't happen to be making and gross generalization here would you? And again, my just prior comments about BMW clearances: The new bearings are "proper" by standard best practices and the older ones just slightly out of this spec. Lastly, how many of these failures do you think have nothing to do with true internals? I'd bet a bunch are simply oil and water pump failures and gaskets failures that led to much worse things...

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Pretty darn narrowly focused. Not only 1 country but also 1 aftermarket warranty provider... And who knows what range of car model years and mileage is included. We also don't know if this is catastrophic failures only. Finally, unless all of the S65 failures have happened in one year (which I doubt) we can not compare to these ANNUAL failure rates. Regardless, I fully agree with your overall point that the numbers here for the S65 can be loosely compared to these and it does indeed make the S65 look quite good.

Warranty Direct sell extended warranties on cars that are mostly sold outside of a dealer network. So they will generally be older high mileage cars sold from privately owned forecourts. AIUI an engine "failure" would be any engine related warranty claim.
But no matter how you look at it, older BMWs are not a car I would want to own without a (BMW) warranty.

[catpat8000]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Warranty Direct sell extended warranties on cars that are mostly sold outside of a dealer network. So they will generally be older high mileage cars sold from privately owned forecourts. AIUI an engine "failure" would be any engine related warranty claim.
But no matter how you look at it, older BMWs are not a car I would want to own without a (BMW) warranty.

I think the biggest criticism of this study would be that the same company producing the results also benefits from high expected failure numbers, scaring people into buying warranties. They could remove this criticism by publishing the details of their study and methodology, if they wished.

But no matter, the high order bit in my post was that when looking at industry data, there is no reason to be alarmed by the M3/S65 numbers.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Quite a while ago BMW UK cottoned onto the fact that a cheap 3 series would fit into the price category for company cars and they sold them by the shedload.
These were cars that were hacked up and down the country doing high mileage and at the end of the lease they would go to auction.
Hondas on the other hand are more likely bought by older citizens doing low mileage. Not that it really matters but it does explain in part why the Honda numbers are so good.
What you really need are the figures from the companies managing the warranties for the big dealer networks but I suspect they will be far less forthcoming about failure rates.
I bet that most big car companies would be more than happy with a sub 1% failure rate at 100,000 miles.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by B767capt

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...r-own-s85.html

post #26

Thanks, I just read the entire thread. I think poster "duschanio" is the guy SFP was talking about that may not be doing any of this work at all, but instead getting info from a buddy at BMW? (Sorry if I don't have that quite right.) Anyways, that guy just posted a bunch of pictures of the work he does, and it looks pretty real to me (not made up).

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Thanks, I just read the entire thread. I think poster "duschanio" is the guy SFP was talking about that may not be doing any of this work at all, but instead getting info from a buddy at BMW? (Sorry if I don't have that quite right.) Anyways, that guy just posted a bunch of pictures of the work he does, and it looks pretty real to me (not made up).

You would have thought he could have scared up some new photos having done so many rebuilds rather than recycle the old ones from on his farm.
You gotta love the power of the Internet - one minute you are asking on M5board "Hello does anyone have changed the Bearing rods On the v10 ?" (looking for a DIY guide) and the next you are an expert and apparently M5 owners are flocking to you from all over Germany to fix their cars.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

You would have thought he could have scared up some new photos having done so many rebuilds rather than recycle the old ones from on his farm.
You gotta love the power of the Internet - one minute you are asking on M5board "Hello does anyone have changed the Bearing rods On the v10 ?" (looking for a DIY guide) and the next you are an expert and apparently M5 owners are flocking to you from all over Germany to fix their cars.

Man, I thought I was cynical.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Quite a while ago BMW UK cottoned onto the fact that a cheap 3 series would fit into the price category for company cars and they sold them by the shedload.
These were cars that were hacked up and down the country doing high mileage and at the end of the lease they would go to auction.
Hondas on the other hand are more likely bought by older citizens doing low mileage. Not that it really matters but it does explain in part why the Honda numbers are so good.
What you really need are the figures from the companies managing the warranties for the big dealer networks but I suspect they will be far less forthcoming about failure rates.
I bet that most big car companies would be more than happy with a sub 1% failure rate at 100,000 miles.

This might be true in the UK but here there are a ton of Hondas on the road owned by people of all ages. The Honda Accord is the #2 best selling car in the USA. #1 being the Toyota Camry.

They may not be very exciting cars but I will say nothing beats Japanese reliability for a car. I always see 20+ year old Japanese cars which look and run like new with over 200k-300k miles.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by regular guy

There's another shock. Engines documented with proper clearance and/or thinner oils are more reliable than BMW. 2.2% is horrible. Guess I was right: the fruit doesn't fall too far from the tree with BMW and Mini. It must be the high octane gas in the EU and UK that is causing this high rate of failure. According to the data on this forum, we don't see that high rate here in the US on the same engines with lower octane gas. It's gotta be the gas...what else could it be?

BTW, can you post the link to the raw data, or whatever you found?

I was just reading that you would love to post a new thread about the higher Octane gas in EU (Belgium) ?

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by swamp2

No idea where you are getting this. There certainly are standards as to ratio of clearance size to journal size. The older S65 bearings are slightly tighter than this spec (without the extra 0.0005") and the newer bearings are within the spec (using the smaller spec of 0.00075 in/in and even counting the extra 0.0005). I'm also don't believe you've asked me many times for counter examples to this standard.

I searched every time you and I discussed "best practice." Most of these are relevant in some way or another.
You: Post-403, Post-581, Post-590, Post-821, Post-891, Post-948, Post-1491, Post-1745, Post-1746

Then I searched how many times I mentioned "best practice" and I pulled out the ones I thought seemed most relevant. It's true that some of these aren't responding directly to you, but one of them is -- and it's very clearly asking you to google the results for yourself if you're still unconvinced these clearance ratios are industry best practice. So clearly there's some established history between us on this topic.
Me: Post-529, Post-584, Post-765, Post-1772

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I was just reading that you would love to post a new thread about the higher Octane gas in EU (Belgium) ?

Maybe we can get another 5 or 6 thread pages out of it?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Maybe we can get another 5 or 6 thread pages out of it?

Yeah who nows..we should go for it !
Anyway, i know and felt you had an angry feeling about the Octane and i think that sometimes the bearings are like a hard carrying load especially for a man like you that wants to find a solution for all of us !
Therefore i can only have enormous respect and this for a man like you ! And that's why i wanted to say ...thank you man !
BTW...i asked you this yesterday and think you have missed it... about the video on this page and what do you think about it ? >http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...9#post15529269

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by regular guy

I searched every time you and I discussed "best practice." Most of these are relevant in some way or another.
You: Post-403, Post-581, Post-590, Post-821, Post-891, Post-948, Post-1491, Post-1745, Post-1746

Then I searched how many times I mentioned "best practice" and I pulled out the ones I thought seemed most relevant. It's true that some of these aren't responding directly to you, but one of them is -- and it's very clearly asking you to google the results for yourself if you're still unconvinced these clearance ratios are industry best practice. So clearly there's some established history between us on this topic.
Me: Post-529, Post-584, Post-765, Post-1772

Sure, we've discussed the heck out of clearances, that is what the whole thread is about. But again, I've never said there is not a rough specification for an industry norm/best practice. I have said and will continue to repeat that many manufacturers, BMW included, have been "violating" this specification for decades (according to the data you have supplied). To me this simply means there is greater latitude in the best practice than the particular one you (Clevite) have provided.

[chris719]

Related question: Can you trust plastigauge with clearances this tight? Basically, if you do replace your bearings, will it guarantee you aren't worse off than you were before?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by chris719

Related question: Can you trust plastigauge with clearances this tight? Basically, if you do replace your bearings, will it guarantee you aren't worse off than you were before?

Plastigage works but a better process would be to measure the shell thickness with a ball mic and over all shell height. The height will give you a comparison for crush numbers and shell thickness will give good back and forth to the old shells as far as clearance goes.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by B767capt

Here is a copy and paste from Troy over on the M5board. He sells used S85's and usually puts new bearings in them so he's always looking for supply. This ought to stir the pot.





don't sell them because I would have to mark it up to sell the parts I guess ~ but I am more than happy to help you with finding the parts you need. The list of parts needed is actually really simple, although the 702/703 bearings are on back order as of last Wednesday. I bought the remaining 55 bearing shell sets in the country or so I was told that...lol. Some were from a cali dealer, Vegas dealer, and another set from somewhere in Miami. ;-)

I was told BMW is going to be changing the 702/703 and moving to yet another bearing part # within the next few months, so they are not really focusing on replenishing the inventory in the USA with the current bearings. We shall see soon enough.

I called my local dealer today to have them check the national network on 702/703 bearings. As of today, there's between 300-400 sets of 702/703 bearings in the US right now.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Yeah who nows..we should go for it !
Anyway, i know and felt you had an angry feeling about the Octane and i think that sometimes the bearings are like a hard carrying load especially for a man like you that wants to find a solution for all of us !
Therefore i can only have enormous respect and this for a man like you ! And that's why i wanted to say ...thank you man !
BTW...i asked you this yesterday and think you have missed it... about the video on this page and what do you think about it ? >http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...9#post15529269

Thanks for the kind words. I noticed from the video the RPMs are high until the clunk, then they go lower. That has me puzzled because if it were a starter staying engaged then slowly disengaging and grinding as it pulls out, I would expect RPMs to stay lower then speed up. So I'm a bit puzzled.

You might try to isolate the location. Front/rear, top/bottom, left/right.

But whatever it is...I'm sure it's caused by high octane gas.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by regular guy

Thanks for the kind words. I noticed from the video the RPMs are high until the clunk, then they go lower. That has me puzzled because if it were a starter staying engaged then slowly disengaging and grinding as it pulls out, I would expect RPMs to stay lower then speed up. So I'm a bit puzzled.

You might try to isolate the location. Front/rear, top/bottom, left/right.

But whatever it is...I'm sure it's caused by high octane gas.

THX for the reply !
Today i took a picture and especially for you....98 Ron Octane !