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10-24-2007, 02:18 AM | #1 |
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M-DCT "preview" (by way of Mitsubishi)
We can get some very valuable insight into what may likely lie in store for us with BMWs M-DCT dual clutch automated manual transmission by examining the new Evo X TC-SST (Twin Clutch-Sportronic Shift Transmission). Wow what a name, have to say I prefer simply "dual clutch transmission".
This is an optional transmission which is offered in addition to the standard 5 speed MT. It provides both automatic modes as well as a paddle shifted manual mode (almost for sure shiftable via the stick on the transmission tunnel as well - any Evo fans want to confirm that?). It's three automatic modes are Normal, Sport and S-Sport. Normal is for everyday cruising, Sport is meant for more spirited driving wheras S-Sport is for full on track use. According to Road&Track, S-Sport is far more aggressive than the sportiest VW/Audi DSG setting (again like I have been saying all along - software will be as important as the mechanical design for M-DCT as this is the only difference between the various automatic modes - software). In S-Sport mode, again a fully automatic mode, upshifts only occur at redline and downshifts occur automatically on slowing for corners. Also, according to R&T, the TC-SST system, "worked flawlessley in both manual and automatic modes" around the 2 mile Mitsubishi test track. In fact the R&T driver said that on this track the TC-SST shifted exactly where he would have if he was shifting a MT. The transmission was simply "fantastic". The only noted problem on this pre-production unit was trouble getting ideal launches (echos of BMWs SMG...). The Evo Chief Engineer insisted that this small remaining detail would be fully addressed before the production models with this transmission are released. Last but not least, despite the new Evo X feeling slower and less edgy than the outgoing Evo IX model (it is in fact a tad slower than the outgoing IX 0-60), with TC-SST in S-Sport mode the Evo X bests the IX around this same 2 mile track by about 1 second! Some of this gain should also be attributed to the AYC (active yaw control system) which is basically an actively controlled rear differential to reduce both under and over steer. However the extra 300 lb of the X over the IX and worse power to weight ratio (11.3 lb/hp for the X vs 10.7 for the IX) is not in favor of the X achieving a better time either, so indeed AYC and TC-SST are really doing something here! Just FYI: 1 second in 2 miles would translate to about 6 seconds on the Nurburgring if the average speeds and gains scale solely on the distance of the track. Hmmm what were my personal estimates of the gains that M-DCT will show on the Ring... Can you hear some of the same things we know about the E92 M3 vs. the outgoing M3 in this information (less edgy but a better performer)? I am confident that BMW will match or exceed Mitsubishi's excellent TC-SST with their M-DCT. If only it will get to the US simultaneously with the cars launch. Us M-DCT fans can only hope...and pray. |
10-24-2007, 02:51 AM | #2 |
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I read about this in the new Motor Trend. Pretty sophisticated stuff........
...but I'll stick w/ my traditional manual still. |
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10-24-2007, 06:18 AM | #4 |
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Ditto. Thought of posting this here, but really only Swamp would gush over it.
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10-24-2007, 08:13 AM | #5 |
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I definitely will not get the car untill DSG or SMG is available. I have no issues with SMG in my E46 M3, so even if DSG cannot be implemented in the M3 for whatever reason (perhaps too much hp or tq for current technology?), I would still be very happy with SMG.
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10-24-2007, 08:23 AM | #6 |
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I doubt this will be a problem.
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10-24-2007, 09:08 AM | #7 |
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I second that... I would be more than fine with an SMG transmission in the E92 M3.
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10-24-2007, 10:06 AM | #8 | |
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DSG
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KEY BENEFITS - Optimized efficiency - Shifting without interruption of traction - Excellent comfort - Very quick and sportive shiftings possible KEY FEATURES -Max. Torque Capacity 600 Nm -Weight (dry) 79 kg -Installation length 660 mm -Synchronization: 1st, 2nd and 3th gear dual cone 4th and 5th gear single cone 6th, and 7th gear dual cone Reverse gear single cone - Gear Spread Ratio 6,8 - Max. Gross Vehicle Mass/Gross Trailer Mass 2500 kg/4500 kg - Shifter System hydraulic http://www.getrag.de/455
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10-24-2007, 10:08 AM | #9 |
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TSG?
I think what is really needed is a TCT (Triple Clutch Transmission) so that one higher and one lower gear can always be preselected!
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Greg Lake Oswego, Oregon, USA 2023 M2 Coupe - Brooklyn Grey/Cognac/CF, 6MT; 2020 MB GLE 450 Last edited by GregW / Oregon; 10-24-2007 at 10:33 AM.. |
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10-24-2007, 10:24 AM | #10 |
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This is what I don't understand about the DSG transmissions. Say you are on track, acclerating in third gear, and the tranny has preselected fourth. Instead of continuing to accelerate, you approach a corner, and thus want to DOWNSHIFT into second. Won't the shift be really slow, as it has to disengage fourth, and then engage second?
Or am I missing something here? |
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10-24-2007, 10:35 AM | #11 | |
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DCT shifts
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10-24-2007, 10:45 AM | #12 | |
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Of course, that would weigh a ton. |
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10-24-2007, 11:19 AM | #13 | |
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10-24-2007, 11:22 AM | #14 |
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And I think that the slowest DCT shifts will be an order of magnitude quicker than the fastest professional human shifts.
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10-24-2007, 11:25 AM | #15 |
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I like simplicity. This transmission, be it installed in an EVO or the M3, is just another expensive part prone to problems (..and expensive repairs after warranty).
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10-24-2007, 01:03 PM | #17 | |||||
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Good discussion. Hold on for a long multi-part reply...
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10-24-2007, 01:23 PM | #18 |
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Did Sam Mitani do the test and write the article? If so, then he's a good driver, and I believe it.
Otherwise, the new Evo SST trans takes a car that is already way too easy to drive fast, and makes it even easier. No wonder it's easy for an intermediate-novice-weekend track guy to go faster in the auto mode. What this means in my NSHO (not so humble opinion) ... we are going to see more Evo drivers getting in over their heads and driving above their skills on the track and the street with this car. This car makes anyone look like a hero. The new one is going to take "point and steer" to a new level of 'no skills required.' I have personally witnessed how dangerous this car can be in the hands of a novice.... when things go wrong, it gets ugly really quick. These cars are prone to dig in and roll. Especially when the noobie drivers think it's ok to test their off-road capability at a track day. Evo rant off (for now!) |
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10-24-2007, 01:25 PM | #19 | |
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10-24-2007, 01:31 PM | #20 | |
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10-24-2007, 01:45 PM | #21 | |
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There is nothing wrong IMO with making high performance driving easier and I think the Evo X and E92 M3 will both excel in this area. I agree with your comments about getting in over your head but hey with systems as thorough and good as DSC I say, "why not". |
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10-24-2007, 01:47 PM | #22 |
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Manual modes
Sounds reasonable. I suppose you can still tweak the continuum between comfort and sport even in manual mode. If the Evo offers multiple manual modes I'd strongly bet the M3 will as well. Do share the difference between manual modes if you can figure it out. I am very interested.
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