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11-18-2008, 06:05 PM | #67 |
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I guess we disagree on that one then...
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11-22-2008, 04:41 AM | #68 |
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Well I had read and watched the videos from DR's recent GTR vs GT2 article and it has answered some of the questions but also brought up some interesting data which in my mind vindicates the Nissan's 7:29 lap, well on the power output at least.
Chris (DR) reckoned that in the hands of Suzuki the GTR they were using could possibly have went 15 seconds quicker with 5 of those seconds being accounted for with the change of rubber to the Dunlops. That meant on that lap on that day in that car a 7:40 was possible. So there you have it, the Nissan car was a fake......... or was it, because I have viewed the data supplied by DR and on the final straight we have some interesting figures like exit speeds on to the straight and peak speeds. Though we didn't have the speed in the Nissan GTR of that mighty lap we did have the ZR1 and those matched videos. Anyway using the ZR1's data it rounded the corner at 100mph and the DR GTR rounded at 89.2mph, that's a huge difference but then look at the next figures of the first bridge, the ZR1 was approx 140mph and according to the matched video of it and the GTR it was ahead by 0.3s at that point so the Nissan car will have been doing approx 138mph. Well what do you know, the DR car was doing 139.5mph, so next the peak speed for the ZR1, it reached 174mph and was well ahead of the Nissan GTR (approx 1s ahead) meaning a approx 6~8mph ahead and again the DR data shows their GTR peaking at 168mph. To me that means the two GTRs, the 7:29 lap car and the 7:55 DR lap car are roughly putting out the same power. So using DR's own estimations of their car capable of a 7:40 lap means we have a 11 second difference to account for. We know they are roughly peaking at the same speeds so output are about the same and most of what DR said was to do with the weight affecting the bulk of their lap so is it possible that Nissan's car was stock in output but had less weight and possible a slightly different suspension setup. Questions, questions. Last edited by footie; 11-22-2008 at 06:04 AM.. |
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11-22-2008, 08:57 AM | #70 | |
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With all this data (and with no disrespect intended), swamp will be busy for hours and hours, but for me it boils down to something very simple (as befits my own mental processes): The GTR was seven seconds slower than the Porsche, with arguably five of those seconds attributable to the Bridgestones. Therefore, with the Porsche already having done a 7:31 on a much better day, this particular Nissan might've done a 7:33 or thereabouts on Dunlops, while happily tailing the GT2 around the track. Makes it easy for me to believe that the GTR is capable of a 7:29 on a perfect day, on a single (pardon me) banzai lap. Can't wait to hear from the faithful. Bruce |
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11-22-2008, 03:31 PM | #73 | |
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Just a couple of quick replies to this before any serious work... (if any)
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This is precisely the opposite opinion of that in the article. They saw no way, tires, driver, better conditions, etc, to reach a 7:29. They said ~7:40. Now this is still opinion, but it is worth more than yours or mine. The appealing thing about the 7:40 estimated time is that is is consistent with many other expert opinions and much of my work as well. It is simply another piece of evidence that the 7:29 time car had more going on than ace driver, lots of practice, good conditions, etc. It very likely had in the neighborhood of 550 hp. |
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11-22-2008, 04:08 PM | #74 | |
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Bruce |
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11-22-2008, 04:28 PM | #75 | |
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Hmmm, the GT2 with "only" 523 hp absolutely spanks the GT-R out of Galgenkopf on to Döttinger Höhe and bests it to an early marker by 12 mph, and you say this "proves" the 7:29 car, which came awfully close to matching the ZR1, has the same power as this particular GT-R? The ZR1 has a 100 lb weight advantage and 100 hp advantage even over the GT2! Unreal. The GT-R was continually spanked on the power competition here by the GT2. The GT2 pulled harder but was tougher to handle and less composed hence less of an advantage than you might think on the final lap time. How do you believe that you should get some equitable comparisons between the two GT-Rs here when you are trying to compare performance of the 7:29 lap and this 7:55 lap? Nonsense I would say. If the two GT-Rs are equitable on power and in the straights the 7:29 GT-R must have consistently cornered so much faster than this car it would again be breaking all laws of physics. The fact that you seem to find equity is again simply unreal. Much of your "data" above are wrong as well. DR is talking minimum apex speed and for the ZR1 that value was 95 not 100 at Galgenkopf. The other crystal clear part of the ZR1 video is that is EXITED here at 109, precisely. To eliminate cornering/handling variable speed contests should be examined begining at corner exits or other places in a straight or near straight line under WOT. Next, first bridge for the ZR1 was 143 mph and leading the 7:29 GT-R by 0.6 seconds from corner exit, not 0.3 sec. Where the heck did you get the evidence that this GT-R was going 139.5 at this bridge? Did DR actually post video with speeds for the GT-R in this section? All I saw was the GT2 video in this section and without speeds. Lastly your "1 second" ahead number is completely wrong as well (again if you are talking ZR1 vs. 7:29 GT-R). The figure is 0.7 seconds. I think you need to sharpen your pencil here. |
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11-22-2008, 10:16 PM | #77 |
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11-23-2008, 03:59 AM | #78 | |
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Best regards, south
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11-23-2008, 04:16 AM | #79 | |
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swamp,
I know my logic is sound, even if you don't agree. You do from time to time have problems reading the data infront of you, remember this little nugget you wrote else where, Quote:
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11-23-2008, 04:26 AM | #80 | |
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Swamp feels they said the limit capable was 7:40, I disagree, he said that he thought the limits possible with that particular car and with those conditions was 7:40. Possibly on a different day and on more favourable track temperatures it would be even better, that is a statement I totally agree with. Also, anyone which decent experience of awd cars will know they always feel easier to drive, especially compared to a rear engined machine like the 997, I have driven quite a few 911s and never once did I feel at one with the thing, whether I would have been any quick if I had is debatable. |
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11-23-2008, 11:29 AM | #81 | |
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Well, Walter's time is 17-seconds faster than this, and having experienced the GT2 at full-afterburner, I have no doubt that the car will achieve that time.[...] Could Nissan really go 27-seconds faster? I just don't know. [...] But I just don't see where another 27-seconds comes from with the car I drove. Ten, perhaps - fifteen with a set of those gummy Dunlops fitted, Suzuki-san driving, using his sublime skills and telepathic knowledge of the car's handling traits. Due to the reference to the achieved lowest times - with the weather conditions being fine - it looks to me like Chris was trying to guess about the best possible time with that given car. So I understand that statement like swamp does. Chris reckons that 7.40 is the best possible time with that car and he thinks that it would require 'sublime skills' to do so. Maybe I overlooked the part where he said "with those conditions" but I just can't read that into the text. Best regards, south
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11-23-2008, 12:09 PM | #82 |
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south,
He said 7:40 (10s for Suzuki and 5s for the Tyres) he comments can only be based on the car they used and the conditions on that day. How could he possibly speak for other track conditions without driving the car on those circumstances. |
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11-23-2008, 12:30 PM | #83 | |
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Best regards, south
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11-23-2008, 02:25 PM | #84 | |
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Chris is a great pilot and in his opinion Suzuki could only possibly be 10 seconds quicker than him, I personally don't know if that is the case. He is comfortable in saying that Walter could find an extra 17 second in the GT2 but felt Suzuki could only find 10 seconds in the GTR, remember 5 seconds were the tyres. Well I say give Suzuki the same reasonable doubt as you gave Walter and that would then make the GTR lap time 22 seconds quicker with a lap of 7:33 and that isn't too far off the Nissan lap for another completely stock GTR. |
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11-23-2008, 02:48 PM | #85 | |
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Still I can't follow how the DR data proves "otherwise." When comparing to the ideal lap Suzuki was doing Chris had to take weather conditions into consideration, pretty logical to me. Best regards, south
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11-23-2008, 03:52 PM | #86 | |||
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Now if we want to make some conclusions about power and under rating from lap times I think we can do this, it is just that it is not as strong of a case as the straight line/WOT comparison technique. Good lap times require power to weight, period. This car essentially got a 7:40. Sure hypothetical "best conditions" but call this the time. Doing this with 480 hp and this weight is still, based on regression analysis, just barely possible (our friend sigma is at 2.4). I'd say "impossible" but I think 3 sigma is really that limit. Doing it at 530 hp (your previous estimate and my low estimate for the 7:29 car) is quite possible (sigma = 1.8) and even reasonable for this advanced chassis and the ease at which one can really push the car. So we are back to the contradiction. Based on expert opinions, those who have driven the car on the Ring, my analyses, both regression and straight line performance and now this test, the 7:29 car was not "stock". Although they don't address under rating in this particular test the implication is certainly there. We already agree that the 7:29 car had between 530-560 hp. I believe this particular DR car had between 500-530 hp. Either way you slice is they are cheating and lying and the two cars were almost for sure not identical. Continuing.... South has you heartily beat in the contention that DR stated anything explicitly about track conditions or made any exceptions for them. They said, Quote:
I get considerable flak here on the GT-R issue for bias, having conclusions before data, not accepting new results, etc. Of course I deny those accusations (less one infamous premature/poorly worded post title...). It is really entertaining to see the faithful on the side of Nissan be so amazingly hypocritical and doing the exact same thing. Anyone who believes that this article concludes or provides evidence of: 1. The 7:29 time being possible with the cars stated specifications. 2. This "DR" GT-R is per stated specifications. 3. Those two cars are identical (less tires). Is really missing the point and looking through blinders. Time to wake up guys. |
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11-23-2008, 04:28 PM | #87 |
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I guess we will all agree to disagree on this. I personally disagree and will continue to disagree that the 7:29 was producing different power an all the others. DR's data basically backs this up when compared to the data from the ZR1.
I insist that it's most likely suspension, being a pre-production spec, great for track work and less so for day to day driving. |
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11-24-2008, 01:24 AM | #88 |
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So are any of you all engineers or test drivers? Or is this all just assumption based upon the programs on your computer in front of you and your sweet driving M3?
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