Spa Trackday: BIBLICAL FL brake failure (Glowing Disc!)

[RickyBobby]

What do your other 3 calipers look like? It seems like everything was working just fine until you siezed the one caliper. I wonder if the melted bits happened before it siezed or happened as a result of the seizing. I would think the latter since you had no warning or brake degradation.

If your other 3 corners look ok than I would do some serious investigating to find out why the one siezed.

[kmac1980]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

What do your other 3 calipers look like? It seems like everything was working just fine until you siezed the one caliper. I wonder if the melted bits happened before it siezed or happened as a result of the seizing. I would think the latter since you had no warning or brake degradation.

If your other 3 corners look ok than I would do some serious investigating to find out why the one siezed.

this is a good point, probably not as relevant to look at the rear brakes, but certainly the other side on the front....

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

pads actually bend (as shown in one of Junior's photos).

That is true, but I would also highlight how little pad material was left in those pics. Personally, I would change any pads before they became that low. I don't *think* most pads will bend as long as they have a reasonable amount of material left - at least I have never seen it. Although, I'm not a race car driver ; )

[JuniorM3]

Originally Posted by RickyBobby

What do your other 3 calipers look like? It seems like everything was working just fine until you siezed the one caliper. I wonder if the melted bits happened before it siezed or happened as a result of the seizing. I would think the latter since you had no warning or brake degradation.

If your other 3 corners look ok than I would do some serious investigating to find out why the one siezed.

The LF pads had 4+mm on it. RF was stripped to the metal. I think because of the stuck caliper. With all the trail braking @ Spa the LF should have the most worn pads.

The left front caliper has no damage from the heat. No blistering.

[JuniorM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

But as discussed he did not have a brake backing plate connected to the hose to most effectively use all that good moving cool air. As well the OEM hat design very much interferes with this air moving through the rotor vanes. Compare the OEM rotor/hat configuration to the AP Racing!

I did have the hoses connected to my custom backing plates.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by JuniorM3

The LF pads had 4+mm on it. RF was stripped to the metal. I think because of the stuck caliper. With all the trail braking @ Spa the LF should have the most worn pads.

The left front caliper has no damage from the heat. No blistering.

It sounds like a key question is if you felt anything unusual with the handling of the car before the failure. If the piston had gotten stuck and the RF pads were dragging for some time before the failure, I must assume that you would have felt that. What are your observations and thoughts on this specific point?

[JuniorM3]

Originally Posted by lucid

It sounds like a key question is if you felt anything unusual with the handling of the car before the failure. If the piston had gotten stuck and the RF pads were dragging for some time before the failure, I must assume that you would have felt that. What are your observations and thoughts on this specific point?

I didn't feel 'em dragging, didn't hear 'em, and the car didn't pull to the right.
The last time i braked was for Eau Rouge. That corner is steep uphill. And the long straight afterwards also has an angle to it. I think that's why i didn't notice. The brakes failed in Malmedy Les Combes.


The only explanation would be that brakes don't have to drag hard for a significant heat build up.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JuniorM3

I did have the hoses connected to my custom backing plates.

Cool, I did not see that work in any of your posts about your custom system. But it looks like that part of the project was updated in your post.

The more I read here the more this looks like some kind of catastrophic failure based on a stuck piston. Both rotors were probably not at an operating temperature close to the peak temperature of your failed rotor. If the brake on your front wheel on the opposite side of this failure is in good shape that will be confirmation that this may be an isolated incident, something of very low probability except when pushed as hard as you were and still then not something guaranteed to happen. I'm not trying to make excuses for the OEM system. With your mods the system should have been able to take some very hard track use.

Have you decided on a BBK?

[JuniorM3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Have you decided on a BBK?

Harold from HP Autowerks is setting me up with F+R StopTech 380/355 BBK in red

I don't know with pads to run yet. Some advise please!

I also want the GT4 backplates. At the moment there are only picas of the GT4 Inlets of the GT4 brake cooling system online. But the backplates are available from Motorsport. The GT4 run the AP system. I hope the inner disc diameter is the same to the backplate will fit the Stoptech's.

The GT4 racing backplates should fit inside the brake disk and cool better then the open mounting i have that just points @ the center of the brake disc.
GT4 system should look something like this.


I also want to upgrade the diameter of my cooling hose and Inlet. and fab. a second cooling hose to the caliper. This all just to be sure and to get the system back to operating temperature.

I have a trackday @ the Zolder track in Belgium coming up. It's even worse on the brakes then Spa!!!!

[jml]

Originally Posted by JuniorM3

Harold from HP Autowerks is setting me up with F+R StopTech 380/355 BBK in red

I don't know with pads to run yet. Some advise please!

I also want the GT4 backplates. At the moment there are only picas of the GT4 Inlets of the GT4 brake cooling system online. But the backplates are available from Motorsport. The GT4 run the AP system. I hope the inner disc diameter is the same to the backplate will fit the Stoptech's.

The GT4 racing backplates should fit inside the brake disk and cool better then the open mounting i have that just points @ the center of the brake disc.
GT4 system should look something like this.


I also want to upgrade the diameter of my cooling hose and Inlet. and fab. a second cooling hose to the caliper. This all just to be sure and to get the system back to operating temperature.

I have a trackday @ the Zolder track in Belgium coming up. It's even worse on the brake then Spa!!!!

You should consider the PFC BBK kit bimmerworld is selling. James claims it stops better/more accurately than the StopTech stuff he also sells. It's also several pounds lighter. You can't go wrong with PFC01 pads as well.

[JuniorM3]

Oh oooh,

This guy's burned his dust covers...
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?p=13543025



His sealing rings were still 'OK'.

Need to work on the -ing

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by JuniorM3

Harold from HP Autowerks is setting me up with F+R StopTech 380/355 BBK in red

I don't know with pads to run yet. Some advise please!

...

I have a trackday @ the Zolder track in Belgium coming up. It's even worse on the brakes then Spa!!!!

Well I don't have an iota of track experience compared to you. However, if I drove the car as hard as you do (and plan to), I would go with the Stoptech Tropy system or the AP Racing system. In line with what another poster suggested I do think the PFC01 pads have the highest temperature rating out there. It is a full race pad.

[Trier Germany]

Get AP racing BBk with PAGID Gelb pads. Majority of the VLN racing series use this combination.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by JuniorM3

Oh oooh,

This guy's burned his dust covers...
http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?p=13543025



His sealing rings were still 'OK'.

Need to work on the -ing

This is why racing calipers don't have dust boots.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by mastek

Junior .... you still have not mentioned what pads you were using at the time?
If its a sponsor issue .. please PM me ... thanks

?

And you should definitely consider the Performance Friction BBK 1st > then StopTech Trophy > then AP Europe (not the US Kit) > then StopTech (Regular BBK) .... and last but not least Brembo.

And Performance Friction 01 Compound is what most the e46m3 Racing programs used... including the factory BMW teams

[consolidated]

Originally Posted by mastek

?

And you should definitely consider the Performance Friction BBK 1st > then StopTech Trophy > then AP Europe (not the US Kit) > then StopTech (Regular BBK) .... and last but not least Brembo.

And Performance Friction 01 Compound is what most the e46m3 Racing programs used... including the factory BMW teams

Do you have a link to the AP Europe kit, what's the difference? The PFC kit is first on my list but the price is heartstopping.

[mastek]

Originally Posted by consolidated

Do you have a link to the AP Europe kit, what's the difference? The PFC kit is first on my list but the price is heartstopping.

No link - very hard to get in the states
Stillen imports the AP Calipers here in the states and puts different rotors and hardware.
You'll have to do some research - sorry

[signes]

Here is a link to a comment from a guy at AP discussing the differences between the Stillen distributed AP kit here and the European version. You could PM the guy to get the specifics about the differences but they sound pretty similar.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=87

[JuniorM3]

Originally Posted by mastek

Junior .... you still have not mentioned what pads you were using at the time?
If its a sponsor issue .. please PM me ... thanks

Carbone Lorraine CR6 Endurance.

Front CL rear Stock


The melting point of the pad is 1000Deg Celcius.

''These pads are designed for competition/track day use and are used by top teams around the world. The pads are made of a unique sintered material resulting in all compounds having a very high friction coefficient and its uncompressible material gives a stiffer pedal and better brake modulation. Unlike other performance pads these are gentle on the discs and require no specific bedding in procedure. One of its best feature is that the pad material operates from cold and friction never decreases with high temperatures. The pads are available in four different compounds.

Excellent grip from cold
Grip doesn't decrease with high temperatures
No specific bedding in procedure necessary
No material transfer
Gentle on discs
Very low wear rate
Sintered metal compound brazed to high quality backing plate
Environmentally friendly, no lead, no asbestos and no nickel''


''Carbone Lorraine is the first manufacturer to introduce sintered metal brake pads for racing cars. Suppliers to Peugeot WRC, TVG High speed trains, Mirage Fighters and motorbikes, you can be confident of the performance.''

Yes thats right: ''you can be confident of the performance.''

Cool I had Fighter Jet pads on my car...

Here's some rally guy's oppinion:
''I had heard some very positive reviews about Carbone Lorraine brake pads being used on fast road cars and they’re very big in the bike world also not being that new in the car world.
Sean at K-Tec was extremely helpful in helping answering those vital questions that I wanted answers to. Even though their experience in motorsport was very limited, he was still able to convince me that the CL pads would far out perform the Pagids. Other bonuses for this pad are that they are carbon sintered, meaning basically that they will perform braking at a good friction right up until you melt the disks on your car! Organic compounds tend to have a limit on temperature, whereas CL pads will theoretically work at almost any temperature, with a recommended temperature of between 200-700 celcius for RC6 for example.''

[OG_M3]

if price is really no object, i'd sping for the endless monoblock system. their products are super gt, f1, wrc, alms, le mans, nurburgring 24hr tested.

[jml]

I am still sketched out by the AP team not publishing the mechanical bias. I don't buy their excuses and I think the kit (being sold by EAS) was thrown together by vendors in the US backed by some AP engineers dropping in some mechanical engineering marketing speak that is 100% correct, but not necessarily part of the product being sold. There is very little in the way of comparison between what is being sold under stillen and AP in the US and what we see in pictures on this forum used by racing teams.

I will admit this is engineering intuition and distrust of vendors backed with no data.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by jml

I am still sketched out by the AP team not publishing the mechanical bias. I don't buy their excuses and I think the kit (being sold by EAS) was thrown together by vendors in the US backed by some AP engineers dropping in some mechanical engineering marketing speak that is 100% correct, but not necessarily part of the product being sold. There is very little in the way of comparison between what is being sold under stillen and AP in the US and what we see in pictures on this forum used by racing teams.

I will admit this is engineering intuition and distrust of vendors backed with no data.

Hmmm, this sounds interesting. Does not sharing an engineering detail like bias (I assume you simply mean hydraulic ratio) mean the entire system and its origin is suspect? What excuses were made and who made them? What "marketing speak" is not 100% correct? Can you clarify exactly what information you want, what is missing and the differences among the kits from the various suppliers you mention? AP has a pretty darn solid reputation... Maybe getting OT here. Start another tread on this if you want to try to get to the bottom of something.