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06-09-2007, 07:54 PM | #1 |
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Another CSL?
So do you guys think BMW will do it again and produce a better M3 later just like the CSL 1 uped the M3? Is there any news of it, and what do you think
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06-09-2007, 08:00 PM | #2 |
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E92 CSL
You can almost bet on it, though there is no evidence as of yet. I would guess they will add 30 or 40 hp and take out a 100 lb or so and jack the price $10 - 15k. Hopefully, it will be certified for the US this time.
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06-10-2007, 12:33 AM | #3 |
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according to member steveD, who's evidently a writer for evo magazine, the CSL is a sure thing, and slated for release in summer of 08.
see here: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...7&postcount=33
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06-10-2007, 10:24 AM | #5 | |
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I really would be surprised to see a CSL before the facelift for E92 has taken place (probably spring 2010). That's how it was the last time. But it's only my personal estimation, doesn't have to be true.
Oh, and I wouldn't wait, especially in the US: Quote:
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06-10-2007, 05:51 PM | #8 | |
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Also, the lip above the number plate became wider. And that's it. No change to the front of the car. There is no guarantee there is even going to be a face lift to the E92 M3. The only reason there were major changes to the E36 M3 was because it came in for quite a bit of criticism for being a bit soft, hence the E36 Evo. |
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06-11-2007, 03:08 AM | #10 |
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Wheels/tires, suspension tweaks (harsher firmer ride), minor engine mods (a few extra hp--not that there should be lots of room there for improvement), maybe a different steering wheel and shifter?
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06-11-2007, 03:29 AM | #11 |
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Yeah i'd expect a CSL to come out, but it'll be a late model, maybe 2010 at the earliest though. Gotta give the new M3's their two years of glory first, like what 18months of glory the 335i's got.
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06-11-2007, 04:03 AM | #12 |
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06-11-2007, 07:14 AM | #13 |
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I assuming you are referring to an actual E46 CSL (not sold in the US), and to the competion package relased in the US instead of the CSL, right?
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06-11-2007, 08:08 AM | #14 | |
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Also, the V8 produces 414bhp on paper. I suspect it will produce more when dyno'd. |
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06-11-2007, 09:32 AM | #15 | |
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Whatever you and I say, we are speculating, but let's speculate: I will make the following arguments: 1. There is serious Hp competition out there, and BMW cannot afford to release the M3 engine with significant undeveloped potential. 2. The M3 engine is already pushing current technological boundaries of the state-of-the-art. I'll support these arguments with the following data on the M3, F430, and RS4 engines (I am attaching a table). Note that these V8 engines are pretty close in displacement. The BMW and Ferrari engines are especially similar in cylinder dimensions. As you can see, the Ferrari engine beats the M3 engine, but not by much. Assuming BMW tweaks things around and messes with the torque curve, it might be able to gain another 1-2 kW/liter for a total of 4-8 kW, but nothing more unless there is a major breakthrough in engine technology within the next 2-3 years. And look at how close the Audi figures are. Do you really think BMW is comfortable with that, and why wouldn’t they use whatever they’ve got to open up a gap? |
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06-11-2007, 09:47 AM | #16 |
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1) Because they want to allow room for the CSL.
2) They don't want to get too close to the M5/M6. 3) Because they have gone on record as saying they don't want to get into a "power" race with MB and Audi. Why would they need to have an engine with any more power than the RS4, when dynamically the M3 will be better, and also it is lighter? Quite simply, 414bhp is enough power. 4) Because in reality the official output figures are most likely an underestimation of the actual power produced. This is the case with the M5/M6, 335i. 5) Because this engine is at the start of it's life cycle, and therefore there will be plenty of room for further development in the future. |
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06-11-2007, 11:51 AM | #17 | |
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To respond to your points in the order you posted them: 1) How many CSLs will BMW sell? A few thousand. So, you are saying they will handicap the entire M3 product line so that they can sell a few thousands of another product? 2) M5/M6 are targetted at entirely different markets, so there is no overlap/issue there. 3) It doesn't matter what they might have said to downplay the threat from MB and Audi. Come on, deep inside they would love to open up a serious gap somehow and advertise that. Even if that is what they really think, what the market thinks and wants is more important. Like it or not hp numbers are important in marketing campaigns, especially when one is paying $60k for the product. Yeah, my '04 325ci handles better than a production supercharged dodge neon (or whatever those things are), but the neon will still blow me at a light, and having paid $35k, I don't like that. That's the sentiment. 4) I don't understand your point here. If the actual numbers are higher than the published numbers, that would make it even more difficult for the BMW engineers to up the power for the CSL (this relates back to my comment about the Ferrari numbers). 5) This again doesn't make sense to me; I am saying there are theoretical limits and all that (see Ferrari comment again). Also, the engine is not at the start of its life cycle at all. To the best of my knowledge, the M5 has been using the V10 version. However, as I've said in my previous post, yes, if there is a technological breakthrough in engine design within the next 2-3 years, we might see differences, but that would take more time. They could possibly have something in the pipeline right now, but we would have heard about it if it were something significant. Regards, Last edited by lucid; 06-11-2007 at 12:13 PM.. |
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06-11-2007, 11:58 AM | #18 |
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no i think he's right. BMW usually doesn't put out there best numbers for some reason, just like what they did with the 335i 0-60 numbers
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06-11-2007, 12:00 PM | #19 |
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06-11-2007, 01:21 PM | #20 | |||||||
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Ok, I will try to respond to your post, but I don't know where to start because it is full of so many glaring errors, and lack of understanding.
Quote:
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It's the same as Porsche with the Cayman. Of course it's underpowered, but the engineers were not allowed to give it too much for fear of treading on the toes of the 911. Quote:
BMW will debut a concept version of the M6 CSL at Frankfurt in September, with the production version in Geneva March 2008. As you can see, the CSL "brand" will be much more prominent in the future, and will be viewed as a new step up from the standard 'M' cars. Quote:
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And I only think it's boy racers in parking lots that care about power and getting away from lights. BMW is certainly not targeting this market! Quote:
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So some of the best engineers in the world have spent several years developing the V8, when all they had to do was to take the M5 engine and cut off two cylinders? Don't believe everything you read in the press. The S65 V8 is a totally brand new engine and is at the start of what could be a ten year life cycle if the E36/E46 is anything to go by. The E92 M3 is filling a niche. It's no coincidence that the power to weight ratio is exactly 250bhp/tonne. The car weighs 1,655kg, therefore the power it was only ever going to have 'officially' is 414bhp. Look at how it fits into the M brand products: M6 (507/1785kg) 284bhp/tonne M5 (507/1830kg) 277bhp/tonne M3 (414/1655kg) 250bhp/tonne Z4 M (343/1495kg) 229bhp/tonne Possible future M1/M2 (350/1520kg est.) 230bhp/tonne. |
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06-11-2007, 01:43 PM | #21 | |
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1. I omitted the GT3 because of the drastically different engine geometry. That doesn't allow for a relevant comparison. We are talking about extracting more power from a specific configuration. 2. In case you still don't get it, I am using the Ferrari engine as the benchmark for the state of the art. 3. Who cares about what the hp increase would look like on paper? We are talking about actual increases that can be experienced by an owner since we are comparing a regular M3 with a possible M3 CSL. I don't care if BMW will make things look better for the CSL because they did some clever hp accounting. 4. What's up with "boy racers"? So you don't care at all about your car's straight line acceleration? And, BMW doesn't either? Give me a break…What planet do you live on? 5. What do you know about what I have or have not read in the press? Are you denying that the V8 is a derivative of the V10? Who said anything about simply chopping off 2 cylinders? It is never that simple. Man you really need to relax, try to understand what other people are saying, engage in some kind of productive discussion, and project less. That's it from me--the last time I respond to any of your posts. Not worth it. |
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06-11-2007, 02:05 PM | #22 | |
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I think responding any further would be otiose. |
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