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06-27-2013, 02:52 PM | #111 |
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Yes, MDM is way too restrictive on the track. I tried the "Euro" MDM and it was still kicking in coming out of corners which killed my exit speeds. As long as you drive within your skill and comfort level, there's little chance of damaging your M3. The first track I ever drove was the Nurburgring, talk about a steep learning curve. My M3 ended up doing 50 laps undamaged. Car control is the most important thing to perfect when starting out, you build a solid foundation and it'll carry you as you become more advanced. You don't know what you are missing if you are driving with traction control on at the track.
Here's me driving pissed off but still demonstrating some car control after getting a puncture on my almost brand new Contisport 5Ps on the 1st session of the weekend and had to borrow my buddy's worn out PS2s. |
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06-27-2013, 03:39 PM | #112 |
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We have two tracks here, one with cement walls and dirt banks, and the other that will rip off your bumper and shred your suspension if you go off. I drive with Euro MDM and I'm on track for fun with as much skill as I can muster being thrown in, but I'm not trying to set hot lap records. Sure I could learn more from DSC off, but the consequences of that risk are too high for me personally.
I think the skier example is a good one. I ski and mountain bike, and I used to do some fairly big stuff on my bike. But I would draw a line when the consequences were too big. It didn't matter if 9 times out of 10 I would be fine, if there was that 1 out of 10 chance of catastrophic injury, then no thanks. Same goes for my car. Would I be fine with DSC off? Highly likely. Could I have a major incident? It's possible. I don't feel like riding the bus for the next 3 years. |
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06-27-2013, 03:54 PM | #113 |
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I tracked in MDM mode during first 12 months & 30 track days, then went DSC off 13 months & 25 track days ago.
When I switched to DSC off, what started happening was, the car would frequently oversteer before apex. Found out pretty quickly that the reason for it was due to turning in too early ("pinching the corner") while going in too fast. Being a novice, and despite having heard that you need to look further down the track, as soon as the track started bending, I was turning. And, especially at decreasing-radius corners, that mistake, which while in MDM mode would be masked or corrected by the computer so that the novice driver wouldn't even notice that he or she is making a mistake, would immediately translate into the car going into oversteer. I wound up getting a lot of practice doing counter-steer/corrections. It also made me think about what was causing it, which evolved to the realization that, conversely to me doing it unintentionally, turning in early is what drifters intentionally do to rotate the car (initiate drift). Same dynamics, but unplanned versus planned. After that was realized & fixed, and I started getting faster, now the car would be oversteering after many apex. I had learned to turn in later and to get on the gas before the apex, but after the apex I was not consistently unwinding the steering wheel and heading out to track out. In fact, many videos would clearly show the steering wheel still turned substantially ("pinching the steering wheel") - i.e. the front tire angle was pretty much in parallel with the inside edge of the curving track. Well, getting on gas with steering wheel at that kind of angle resulted in lots of big oversteers, requiring massive corrections. And, again, while in MDM mode, things like that would be corrected by the car's computer, but the driver would be very aware [not of the fact that the computer saved the car from big oversteers/spins, but of the computer cutting off the gas (& applying brakes). And, as you get faster, this 'lag' (which feels like everything comes to a standstill or are in slow motion) gets longer and longer.] Anyhow, with DSC off, all those dynamics come to the surface, requiring you to think about what is going on, learn and adjust. And, I realized, when I was tracking out while in MDM mode, I wasn't truly tracking out where you can get on full throttle and feel the g-force pushing the car to track out; but rather, I was basically steering my way out to track out. In any case, MDM is fine if you just want to enjoy your time out there in a relatively safe manner. But, after that, if you go DSC off, wow, it's a whole different array of sensations and interactions with both the car and the track. A fuller experience, one might say.
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06-27-2013, 04:57 PM | #114 | |
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If you are starting out, don't feel pressured to go DSC off. I started in full DSC (1st track day), then progressed to MDM (6 track days over 2 different tracks), and now go to DSC off after the first warm-up session. DSC on is a great way to learn the limits of the car early in the track day if you haven't been to the track in a few weeks and are a bit rusty. |
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06-27-2013, 10:22 PM | #115 |
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I am glad this thread came up again as there is a new round of owners starting to track their M3s.
Here is the thing. It depends. There are tracks and parts of the country where a beginner can learn without TC or MDM and still be safe. There are other tracks/times where it would be very foolish. Do you live in So Cal, TX, dry track, lots of run off? Go for it. Or do you live in a place like the Pacific Northwest? Portland International Raceway (PIR) and Pacific Raceway (PR)have lots of close walls, typically near freezing early season and raining. Pacific has standing water, heck a ice patch the first time i went there, and about 6 different ages of asphalt. Very sketchy in the wet. Then PIR. There is goose poop all over the track early season. The city has a public Christmas lights around the track over the holidays.....lots of fluids spilled. My first track day a STI played pin pong of the walls. I have 5 track buddies that have lost their cars....one totaled 2 vipers now races spec miata. So, turn off TC/MDM if you are ready and on a safe track but dont do it when wet at a dangerous track unless you are very experienced.......unless you can go out and buy a new car tommorrow. Will you pick up bad habits by running MDM in the beginning? I didnt but is sounds like many do. You have to be very aware and notice when the TC/MDM kicks in/understand what you may be doing wrong. Once I turned it off it was a non issue.....speeds increased without any side effects. I didn't want to beat up or crash my $75,000 street car so I went ahead and built an E46 M3 track/race car........funny thing is I have $125,000+ into it. No TC and it only comes alive with a 8 degree slip angle. |
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06-28-2013, 01:28 AM | #116 |
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DSC On: First timers; limited fun but safe.
MDM On: Occasional track guy, enjoys sliding but scared of losing control; some fun but still safe. DSC Off: Track junkie, enjoys high slip angles, want to pass the 'vettes, GT3s, GT-Rs; potential for lots of fun but obviously riskier. My advice: learn how to drift on a skid pad with DSC off before going on the race track.
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06-28-2013, 10:07 AM | #117 | |
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06-28-2013, 07:57 PM | #118 |
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IMO, you're a low novice if your driving with MDM on. An advanced driver is trail braking, throttle steering, and sliding the car. Most important, an advanced driver is ahead of the car and corrects before issues compounds into a problem. Dont think that you're all safe and cozy with MDM on.
ideally you start with car control skills. Few of us do. I'd look for ways to develop that skill off track. once you do with the E9x M3...youll realize you were missing out on 75% of the fun.
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06-28-2013, 07:57 PM | #119 |
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IMO, you're a low intermediate if your driving with MDM on. An advanced driver is trail braking, throttle steering, and sliding the car. Most important, an advanced driver is ahead of the car and corrects before issues compounds into a problem. Dont think that you're all safe and cozy with MDM on.
ideally you start with car control skills. Few of us do. I'd look for ways to develop that skill off track. once you do with the E9x M3...youll realize you were missing out on 75% of the fun.
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06-29-2013, 07:28 AM | #120 | |
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06-29-2013, 07:30 AM | #121 |
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As I have stated in the past, IMO, the longer one waits to turn DSC (or MDM) off, the more cautious one needs to be when one does turn it off.
I have seen way too many students become decently quick with dangerously bad habits that the electronics were hiding. I have nothing against MDM, I use it on occasion. It is a tool to be used when needed. But, IMO, a good driver needs to know how to drive without it. Last edited by CanAutM3; 06-29-2013 at 03:28 PM.. |
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06-29-2013, 08:01 AM | #122 | |
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08-18-2013, 06:08 AM | #123 | |
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I was afraid of turning off the MDM because I kept thinking that it was saving me with many of the interventions that I was feeling and seeing when the light came on, and Danielle overheard me talking with a friend about the MDM saving me. She came over and told me to just do it, and turn it off. I put my big boy pants on, and turned it off on the last session of the day, and OMG!!! What I thought were interventions that were saving me were actually interventions that were slowing me down!! I can't wait to go back and drive and experience more of what my M can do. |
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08-18-2013, 07:45 AM | #124 | |
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08-18-2013, 08:45 AM | #125 | |
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08-25-2013, 12:50 AM | #126 | |
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08-25-2013, 01:20 AM | #127 |
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Very good point! "Drift" training has helped me to better understand my car much more. I will continue to do more "drift" training to help my understanding of the cars limits. This has also helped me to save a few close calls and to get closer to DSC OFF. I still have yet to trust the Nurburgring with DSC OFF though.
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08-25-2013, 09:54 AM | #128 | |
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What's really out there are ditches, ruts, drainage pipes, rocks, debris, and tree stumps. I only saw that stuff because I run the track in the morning before the driver's meeting (like...run on two feet) and I look around. Here's a video of Texas World Speedway. There's only 1 place off that track I would consider totally harmless. Everywhere else can get bad really fast. Honestly...I'd rather do the Dukes of Hazard style launch through a ditch than hit a tree but either one should still be avoided.
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08-25-2013, 10:05 AM | #129 |
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Pacific Raceways up here in kent is the same way. lots of risk.
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08-25-2013, 10:28 AM | #130 |
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I think its all about risk vs reward and what your priorities are.
My philosophy on this is the day I can afford to write off 60 grand is the day I'll go DSC off completely. Until then I use my Euro MDM to the fullest and only turn DSC off about one session a day (and drive slower) just to practice. I like having that tiny bit of insurance on the track, reducing my risk Sure, keeping euro MDM on is helping me a bit and holding me back a bit but I'm not out there to win a trophy - I'm just out there to have fun and evolve my driving skills. When I want to have a full on blast with no electronic aids - - I go GoKarting! |
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08-25-2013, 10:38 AM | #131 | |
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02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW exhaust|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|apr gt 250 & splitter|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs| |
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08-25-2013, 10:45 AM | #132 |
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thanks for the compliment 1moremod ... Yeah getting down to a 1:36.1 at pacific was a big milestone for me. I am slower with DSC off but that is intentional - as in I just drive slower .. My DSC off lap time is 1:40ish because I don't push it.
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