BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-15-2013, 01:27 AM   #23
DiXiS 18
Private First Class
59
Rep
137
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Woodland Hills, CA

iTrader: (0)

I was there that day. Although I didn't see the crash happen (was in a different run group) this is what I heard. This was a beginner session. The driver was all over the track in the previous session, had no sense of car control, traction control off. From what I heard this was a cool down lap (last lap). MY theory is that I believe that the driver didn't see the checkered flag on the straight/oval and coming into T3 didn't anticipate how much slower the driver in front of him would be moving. What follows is what you see in the video. Also someone asked why the camaro was so far to the right, that's the driving line. You can look up some videos on youtube but that's the line everyone takes. Driver was taken by ambulance to the hospital and the track was shut down for about 1.5 hours until they could get the ambulance back.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 08:49 AM   #24
WarrantyTracker
Track? What Track? I was just riding along . . .
United_States
46
Rep
694
Posts

Drives: Alpine White E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: An Undisclosed Location

iTrader: (1)

Whatever the cause, I hate to see that happen to anybody. Sometimes students fail to execute their instructor's directives, and chaos ensues. It's a learning curve, and some people climb it more slowly than others.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 10:37 AM   #25
Sleeper519
Captain
Sleeper519's Avatar
United_States
68
Rep
869
Posts

Drives: 08 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA

iTrader: (0)

I agree that he probably missed the checker on the oval cause his rate of speed relative to the Camaro was very high. Hard to see brake lights but I think he panicked and braked and turned trying to cut off the corner to avoid the other car, thus a massive and ill-timed "trail-brake" thru a dusty infield at high speed with predictable outcome.

Instructor should have reined him in awhile back... Hope they are both OK.
__________________

2008 M3 Coupe / DCT // StopTech BBK 380/355 / Pagid RS29 / Motul / Apex Arc-8 / BFG R1S / Ground Control / MS filter / Performance spoiler / BPM tune // Road Atlanta 1:39.70 / VIR Full 2:10.87 / Barber 1:42.20
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 10:45 AM   #26
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Instructors are not mandated in the beginner group with this org. Its an additional fee. Some people fail to see that getting instruction is beneficial in the early stages. I started with cca and go to there two track days a year so that i can get the instruction every six months or so.

But these are the types of drivers i am cautious about - balls to the walls hero types with no skill or training.

Hope he is ok and learns from this.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 11:45 AM   #27
tlp
Colonel
United_States
276
Rep
2,216
Posts

Drives: 991 GT3, Sold:'11 e92 M3 SG/FR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas/SoCal

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
Instructors are not mandated in the beginner group with this org. Its an additional fee. Some people fail to see that getting instruction is beneficial in the early stages. I started with cca and go to there two track days a year so that i can get the instruction every six months or so.

But these are the types of drivers i am cautious about - balls to the walls hero types with no skill or training.

Hope he is ok and learns from this.
+1

Structured programs from BMWCCA and PCA are the best way to start as a beginner. I remember the first time that I went to a ExtremeSpeed event after coming out of BMWCCA. The overall chaos and disorganization was disturbing. BRP looked like a big dust bowl with cars going off one after another. Disconcerting to say the least.
__________________
991 GT3, Sold: '11 e92 M3 SG/FR ZCP|ZCV|ZP2|2MK|494|415|6NR|752
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 11:48 AM   #28
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
123
Rep
4,847
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

^lol

5 of my first 7 track days were with Extreme Speed (the other 2 being with Speed District). After a stint like that, I'm not fazed by anything, lolz.
__________________
BRP 1:56 | CVR 2:01 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 11:54 AM   #29
1MOREMOD
-
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
11815
Rep
23,187
Posts

Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

wow, made a series of very poor decisions and paid for it. seeing the checkered flag, observing your closing rate, knowing about the run off, not yanking the wheel inside, any one would have probably saved this.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW exhaust|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|apr gt 250 & splitter|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:02 PM   #30
tlp
Colonel
United_States
276
Rep
2,216
Posts

Drives: 991 GT3, Sold:'11 e92 M3 SG/FR
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Las Vegas/SoCal

iTrader: (6)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
^lol

5 of my first 7 track days were with Extreme Speed (the other 2 being with Speed District). After a stint like that, I'm not fazed by anything, lolz.
Yes, I'm numb to it now. Not sure if that is a good thing or not.
__________________
991 GT3, Sold: '11 e92 M3 SG/FR ZCP|ZCV|ZP2|2MK|494|415|6NR|752
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:03 PM   #31
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
123
Rep
4,847
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlp View Post
Yes, I'm numb to it now. Not sure if that is a good thing or not.
Well, it prep'd us for Speed Trial USA event over the weekend.
__________________
BRP 1:56 | CVR 2:01 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #32
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
123
Rep
4,847
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

Anyhow, back on topic.

I know this track fairly well and, at the moment when this car started turning, it seems like there was plenty of room between it and the car in front. And, it's not like the car in front came to a complete stop.
Attached Images
 
__________________
BRP 1:56 | CVR 2:01 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:23 PM   #33
dapopa9
Captain
dapopa9's Avatar
68
Rep
653
Posts

Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: San Diego

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Anyhow, back on topic.
I know this track fairly well and, at the moment when this car started turning, it seems like there was plenty of room between it and the car in front. And, it's not like the car in front came to a complete stop.
Yeah thats what I was seeing also which lead me to beleive there was something that went wrong with the car.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:25 PM   #34
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
123
Rep
4,847
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dapopa9 View Post
Yeah thats what I was seeing also which lead me to beleive there was something that went wrong with the car.
Yeah. Or, the newbie driver panicked & turned when his car was closing in on the front car faster than during hot laps.
__________________
BRP 1:56 | CVR 2:01 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:41 PM   #35
surlynkid
Major
surlynkid's Avatar
113
Rep
1,470
Posts

Drives: 2013 E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: League City, TX

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
note to self - never run with any organization that lets beginners on the track with no instructor. around here there are 4 runs groups in the HPDE organizations. the bottom two have an instructor 100% of the time. you don't get to run solo until you clear those two. after that it is check rides to move up or the CDI may throw an instructor in your car any time he wants just to make sure you are where you belong. i am never going to turn down an instructor giving me feedback and don't care if i have to pay $20 extra for it. it is worth every nickel as they always have different input and different thoughts on lines, braking, etc.
__________________
Stoptech 380mm/355mm | PFC08 / Pagid RS-29 | Akrapovic EVO - CF tips | Benvo Tune | MS UDP | AA air filter | MCS 2-way with 700/1000lb springs | Solid bushings and adjustable links | RD front swaybar | Apex EC-7 18x10 square 275/35-18 NT01 | Turner Race Studs | GT4 Brake Cooling | GT4 Power Steering Cooling | Alekshop Oil Cooler | Performance Steering Wheel | | CF Spoiler | Varis System 1 Full CF Diffuser | Extended Paddle Shifters | Schroth Quick Fit Pro | Turner Steering Rack Stops | Vorshlag Camber Plates
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:45 PM   #36
1MOREMOD
-
1MOREMOD's Avatar
United_States
11815
Rep
23,187
Posts

Drives: Race car->
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: check your mirrors

iTrader: (5)

seems like even if brake failure and had already turned in he could have run straight out thru the dirt and had no impact rather than hooking into the wall.
__________________

02 Tiag e46 M3|6MT|GC plates|MCS c.o.|GC bars|GC race control arms|GC bushings|BW eng. & tran. mounts|subframe kit|BW race shifter|BW Jaffster|Euro header|BW exhaust|K&N c.a.i.|Epic race tune|Rouge pulleys|Seibon CF hood|CSL bumper|apr gt 250 & splitter|ST-40|XR-2|SS lines|half cage|Recaro profi|Profi 2 harness|BMWpedals|BW studs|
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 12:57 PM   #37
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1817
Rep
5,337
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

I heard there was a passenger involved as well, is that correct?
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 01:20 PM   #38
Groundpilot
Banned
Groundpilot's Avatar
United_States
476
Rep
1,711
Posts

Drives: 135I DCT , e92 M3 DCT, Audi A6
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: long island,ny

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiXiS 18 View Post
I was there that day. Although I didn't see the crash happen (was in a different run group) this is what I heard. This was a beginner session. The driver was all over the track in the previous session, had no sense of car control, traction control off. From what I heard this was a cool down lap (last lap). MY theory is that I believe that the driver didn't see the checkered flag on the straight/oval and coming into T3 didn't anticipate how much slower the driver in front of him would be moving. What follows is what you see in the video. Also someone asked why the camaro was so far to the right, that's the driving line. You can look up some videos on youtube but that's the line everyone takes. Driver was taken by ambulance to the hospital and the track was shut down for about 1.5 hours until they could get the ambulance back.
So if its your theory and thats what you believe has happened, then you are speculating like us, who have no idea what really took place.
I still think that Camaro saw white car was too fast approaching and was trying to give him some passing room. Personnaly, if i was in that camaro, i would just go straight myself. If white car decided to take a regular line, then he would crash into camaro for sure.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 01:30 PM   #39
Mthrice
Lieutenant
Mthrice's Avatar
106
Rep
504
Posts

Drives: 15 M3 Tanzanite/Blk, 15 GT3
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Las Vegas

iTrader: (1)

Camaro was looking in his rear view mirror, hesitated to turn in. He was on the proper line before turn in, but your supposed to be close to the tires, not on the far side of the track, to set up the next turn. My .02
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 02:30 PM   #40
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Pretty sure he didnt apex because he saw what was coming lol.

I need to run speed district in jan for brp. Plenty of space and no traffic and will spin out intentionally once to get a "feel" lol
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 06:22 PM   #41
The HACK
Midlife Crises Racing Silent but Deadly Class
The HACK's Avatar
1817
Rep
5,337
Posts

Drives: 2006 MZ4C, 2021 Tesla Model 3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Welcome to Jamaica have a nice day

iTrader: (1)

All the "woulda, coulda, shouldas..."

The first time I put a wheel off the track was at my 3rd or 4th school. Happened at the exit to "Riverside" at Buttonwillow. The end result was a HUGE spin that had me cross the track TWICE and came to a stop in the middle of the bus-stop in a giant cloud of dust. Had that happened at a track where there were walls, say, at turn 9 at Laguna Seca, I probably wouldn't be posting here today. Had that happened when there were traffic around me I probably would have collected the bills for multiple cars AND injuries.

It's been drilled and drilled repeated into me ever since that incident to always look for the escape route. Find out the safest way to exit the track should something happen. Go straight, don't try to save the lap should you drop 2 wheels off.

Sure enough, in 2004, shortly after I got my first non BMW, a 350Z, I took it to Buttonwillow running the same counter clock configuration, and I experienced massive brake fade TWICE. Once entering into the bus-stop, the other time entering Sunset. Both times I did the right thing by pointing the steering wheel straight and hold on for dear life in the dirt. I came into the paddocks calm as ever. The brakes on the 350Z on the other hand...Didn't fare so well.

But between my two incidents, there were at least 20 different track days at a dozen different tracks (well, different track layouts. There isn't a dozen track to explore around here), and each time it's been drilled into me by my classroom instructor and in-car instructor to look for escape route on my out-lap, every session.

So we can all sit here and say, damn that NOOB should have gone straight. Or that guy shouldn't have done this. Or that. Or I would have NEVER done that. Yeah, having the experience to see my life literally flash before my eyes in the dust of Bakersfield at the beginning of my driving career probably taught me something about driving on the track, and I can safely say I probably wouldn't have done what the guy in the video did there.

But it's so much easier to sit here and criticize and say "I would have never" than to say "damn that probably could have been me before I knew better." And believe you me, ALL of us, probably, at one point or another in our driving careers, could have made that same stupid mistake. How and where we make it, and how we move on from it, is pure luck in my opinion.

That or you mitigate your risk by going to tracks like Buttonwillow or Chuckwalla where you can accelerate your learning curve with fewer risk of hitting walls, with organizations that insist on sticking an instructor or two with you for the duration of the event, for the first half dozen events. At least until you've got it ingrained into you on what a proper line around the track is, and how to mitigate emergencies WHEN they happen, not IF they happen.
__________________
Sitting on a beat-up office chair in front of a 5 year old computer in a basement floor, sipping on stale coffee watching a bunch of meaningless numbers scrolling aimlessly on a dimly lit 19” monitor.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 08:05 PM   #42
Estoril Blue
First Lieutenant
74
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: 2006 M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

An organization that would send novices out with no Instructor is an organization that is willing to take a LOT of unnecessary risks. I have no idea why anyone would want to run with such a group.
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 08:33 PM   #43
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
123
Rep
4,847
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

So, novices in instructor-led events never have incidents?

In any samples of population, whereas the majority finish out their lives relatively unscathed, you have a small number that either can't fit in or otherwise run into some bad luck. Drivers in track events are a reflection of such...
__________________
BRP 1:56 | CVR 2:01 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
Appreciate 0
      11-15-2013, 08:44 PM   #44
Estoril Blue
First Lieutenant
74
Rep
386
Posts

Drives: 2006 M3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
So, novices in instructor-led events never have incidents?

In any samples of population, whereas the majority finish out their lives relatively unscathed, you have a small number that either can't fit in or otherwise run into some bad luck. Drivers in track events are a reflection of such...

If I said that - or anything slightly resembling that - please quote it. Because I'm having a problem locating it.

My statements don't need translation.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:10 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST