Brembo vs Stoptech

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by consolidated

, It's hard not to cross thread the adapter. I have a Brembo BBK on my Cayman S and the adapter threads are getting worn to the point of replacement after 8 months of use.

It's not that easy to cross thread a bracket either.
Just like any steel bolt going into an aluminum fixture, if you start the first 2-3 rotations by hand, maintain proper torque specifications, and do not use loctite or let anything else congest the threads, the brackets will last the lifetime of the system.

Originally Posted by jml

You know how much one of the those darn Brembo caliper brackets cost if you hose up the threads? You don't want to know. Lets just say I seriously considered having a new one fabed instead of buying one - it would have been much cheaper.

Brackets range between $150 - $195.
They are aircraft aluminum, machined to exacting tolerances, and laser etched with a part # to identify each item, and a serial # for quality control purposes.

Originally Posted by consolidated

One more R&R and I need to toss'm. I wish they were steel, came with studs or we just more durable.

For those who find difficulty in properly aligning the caliper and mounting bolts, we do sell a stainless steel stud set w/ jet nuts. The jet nuts are a one time use item and need to be replace after each removal. We do provide this as a convenience option for the monobloc systems but it was just not justifiable cost wise to include in every application.

[Patricius]

Yay Gary from Race Technology on M3Post. Your departure and the frenzy it created on the other popular M3 community site was certainly entertaining. Hope your fate isn't the same here....

[Gary_C]

Is this Chris B. from Stillen / Brake Pro's, or coincidentally a Chris B. that works directly for AP?
In either case, nice to meet you ... or ... nice to hear from you again.

In case there was any confusion, when I stated...

Originally Posted by Gary_C

The minority in this instance are the top brands who are truly world class manufacturers...

...I was indeed referring to who the braking industry considers their "Big 3", Brembo, Alcon, AP.
( BTW...that's just alphabetical order. Promise! )

Originally Posted by AP Racing - Chris_B

Similarly, Brembo sells components to Race Technologies in the USA, who then develop and produce GT kits. This is a very capable and reputable company that has tons of experience in this area. I understand they also work closely with the home base in Italy before releasing anything to production. <-- Gary, correct me if I'm wrong here.

I do have to correct you actually.

Race Technologies does not develop or produce any brake systems at all.
We are a partner company to Brembo, controlling the High Performance division in North America and acting as their eyes and ears to the market. Our position is to handle the product distribution, customer service and overall direction of the program. As far as the development of the actual systems goes, or involvement goes on "PAUSE" after we request a system for a specific vehicle model based on the demand and market research for a particular vehicle model. We are put back into "PLAY" after the system is engineered, approved, and the components are manufactured by Brembo then delivered to our facility in Costa Mesa. We have a staff in-house that is 100% trained by Brembo that handles the final stages of quality control and kit assembly. Each component is hand picked, assembled, and packaged based on a specific build sheet that is submitted by Brembo for each application part #. This build sheet has 3 stages of redundancy and is hand signed by each person involved. This ensures build quality and is included with every every system as authenticity of a TRUE Brembo GT (Gran Turismo), or Brembo GTR (Race) system.

This was an intentional decision and subsequent actions made more than 8 years old to protect the brand integrity and end confusion with the number of 3rd party made systems that were constructed using Brembo calipers, but not approved or endorsed by Brembo. Many of these types of systems were marketed to the consumer with the "Brembo" name, but came nowhere near the engineering standards or build quality of a true Brembo product. Many resulted in failures that ended up in the hands of Brembo North America due to the name painted across the face of the caliper. Today when you purchase a Brembo GT system, you are receiving exactly what Brembo engineered and designed for your specific vehicle application. Each kit has a specific part #, and each machined component has a part # and serial # to verify authenticity. Our current customer satisfaction is outstanding with nearly a 0% defect or failure rate.

[jml]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

It's not that easy to cross thread a bracket either.
Just like any steel bolt going into an aluminum fixture, if you start the first 2-3 rotations by hand, maintain proper torque specifications, and do not use loctite or let anything else congest the threads, the brackets will last the lifetime of the system.



Brackets range between $150 - $195.
They are aircraft aluminum, machined to exacting tolerances, and laser etched with a part # to identify each item, and a serial # for quality control purposes.

The instructions called for loctite, and my brackets were 250 each for my E46 - wholesale.

[serven7]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

Is this Chris B. from Stillen / Brake Pro's, or coincidentally a Chris B. that works directly for AP?
In either case, nice to meet you ... or ... nice to hear from you again.

In case there was any confusion, when I stated...

...I was indeed referring to who the braking industry considers their "Big 3", Brembo, Alcon, AP.
( BTW...that's just alphabetical order. Promise! )




I do have to correct you actually.

Race Technologies does not develop or produce any brake systems at all.
We are a partner company to Brembo, controlling the High Performance division in North America and acting as their eyes and ears to the market. Our position is to handle the product distribution, customer service and overall direction of the program. As far as the development of the actual systems goes, or involvement goes on "PAUSE" after we request a system for a specific vehicle model based on the demand and market research for a particular vehicle model. We are put back into "PLAY" after the system is engineered, approved, and the components are manufactured by Brembo then delivered to our facility in Costa Mesa. We have a staff in-house that is 100% trained by Brembo that handles the final stages of quality control and kit assembly. Each component is hand picked, assembled, and packaged based on a specific build sheet that is submitted by Brembo for each application part #. This build sheet has 3 stages of redundancy and is hand signed by each person involved. This ensures build quality and is included with every every system as authenticity of a TRUE Brembo GT (Gran Turismo), or Brembo GTR (Race) system.

This was an intentional decision and subsequent actions made more than 8 years old to protect the brand integrity and end confusion with the number of 3rd party made systems that were constructed using Brembo calipers, but not approved or endorsed by Brembo. Many of these types of systems were marketed to the consumer with the "Brembo" name, but came nowhere near the engineering standards or build quality of a true Brembo product. Many resulted in failures that ended up in the hands of Brembo North America due to the name painted across the face of the caliper. Today when you purchase a Brembo GT system, you are receiving exactly what Brembo engineered and designed for your specific vehicle application. Each kit has a specific part #, and each machined component has a part # and serial # to verify authenticity. Our current customer satisfaction is outstanding with nearly a 0% defect or failure rate.

Correct me if Im wrong but it sounds as if Brembo out sources to an independent company(you) for all the NA products? So how does that make you any different from the other companies you were talking about earlier. Again I could be reading this wrong.

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by serven7

Correct me if Im wrong but it sounds as if Brembo out sources to an independent company(you) for all the NA products? So how does that make you any different from the other companies you were talking about earlier. Again I could be reading this wrong.

You are reading it wrong. As I understand it, his company assembles and distributes Brembo sourced kits in north America.

[Gary_C]

Radiation Joe is correct.

Brembo handles 100% of the product side of things, we handle the distribution of the products and the relationships with all of the authorized Brembo dealers.
We do not do any of our own sourcing, assembling, building, or piecing together of systems and/or components outside of what Brembo supplies.

Here's an example of a build sheet as it comes approved from Brembo Italy...

Each individual item is selected, engineered, and manufactured by Brembo, with the exception of brake lines which are spec'd by Brembo but manufactured by Goodridge USA.

As you can see there are 2 check boxes on the right hand column, one for the person picking the parts, and one for a separate person who assembles the system.
There is also a spot to hand write the hand write the serial # for each machined part, and two signature lines at the bottom which creates third step of QC.
One signature from the builder, and one from the person who inspects the contents of the kit and verifyies all part #'s and serial numbers.
There is a separate build sheet for each color option, and each disc type.
In this instance for the BMW M3, there are 8 individual build sheets from Brembo based on offering 4 color options (red, black, silver and yellow) and 2 disc options (cross drilled or slotted).

What I was referring to as "3rd party" are the companies who construct systems using one particular brand of calipers, with a variety of other components not from the same brand, and then marketing the system only as the brand shown on the caliper.
There are also the companies who present themselves as an actual manufacturer, but are sourcing their components from various manufacturers across the globe, and are only responsible for the final machining or construction of kits using those various components. The more people involved in the supply chain, the more difficult it becomes to control the quality of the product. This becomes a larger issue when the suppliers change frequently, as does the overall quality of the product.

We've had instances where people have brought us what they believed to be Brembo made systems that were constructed with used Porsche calipers, Coleman discs, home made machined brackets and hats, and bolted together with low "hardware store" quality nuts and bolts. We've seen other issues with what was originally a Brembo Gran Turismo kit but has been substituted with another brands rotors and/or hats. We have even received complete systems from other brands that were painted with a Brembo logo across the face. Everything Brembo and Race Technologies has done in the last 8-10 years has been to provide the consumer with a product they can trust, and will last the lifetime of the vehicle with no concerns while providing improved performance and the best quality possible.

I didn't state any specific names of any other companies because I don't feel that is justifiable or tactful since there are a few who are doing a decent job in an honest manner, and who have also been able to build a decent reputation in various markets. My point was to offer a better view of what sometimes does happen in this industry and hope that people are able to do proper research before spending their money on a product that may not be what the marketing claims it is.

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by Mickb

Gary

As you know I was the first one to raise a thread on this...

...I will reserve final judgement until I have seen your instructional video however.

Mick

Here's the link to a video I threw together myself.

Replacing Brembo Pads - 6piston Monobloc

It's the video portion only with some captions...NO Audio.

I will add the audio portion soon, as well as a separate video of the installation on an actual car, in REAL TIME w/ NO editing.

[serven7]

Great Video! Thanks

[Gary_C]

Originally Posted by jml

I can't agree with you on that one Gary...

...In fact, IMO the stoptech design is even easier than the brembo F40/F50 design, removing and installing those pins is more difficult than removing the bridge.

I also made a quick video over the weekend showing the pad replacement process on the "F40 / F50" type caliper.
(Again it's just the video with no voice-over yet...that's coming soon)

Replacing Brembo Pads - Part 2 - "F40 / F50" style caliper

JML, is this the caliper you were referring to that you felt was more difficult than a caliper with a removable bridge?

On the Brembo caliper it practically can be done without any tools. While I showed the center punch and hammer in the beginning of the clip (the only tools I had around when I started filming), you can see that the hammer was never used. The brake system I have on my car now uses this style caliper and I actually only used a pair of needle nose pliers and Mechanics gloves when I change the pads.
(Pads can be a bit "warm" when you're changing pads at the track)

[jml]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

I also made a quick video over the weekend showing the pad replacement process on the "F40 / F50" type caliper.
(Again it's just the video with no voice-over yet...that's coming soon)

Replacing Brembo Pads - Part 2 - "F40 / F50" style caliper

JML, is this the caliper you were referring to that you felt was more difficult than a caliper with a removable bridge?

On the Brembo caliper it practically can be done without any tools. While I showed the center punch and hammer in the beginning of the clip (the only tools I had around when I started filming), you can see that the hammer was never used. The brake system I have on my car now uses this style caliper and I actually only used a pair of needle nose pliers and Mechanics gloves when I change the pads.
(Pads can be a bit "warm" when you're changing pads at the track)

Yes, but I'll admit, that does not look as easy as the stoptech caliper(s). No matter how easy you make it look in that video, it is not as easy as the older F40/50 style, and not as easy as the Stoptech or even the stock caliper.

Edit: Kinda reminds me of this video

[JAJ]

Originally Posted by Gary_C

I also made a quick video over the weekend showing the pad replacement process on the "F40 / F50" type caliper.
(Again it's just the video with no voice-over yet...that's coming soon)

The brake system I have on my car now uses this style caliper and I actually only used a pair of needle nose pliers and Mechanics gloves when I change the pads.

My wife's 1995 Mercedes has this exact caliper design - same tools, same flat spring to keep the pads from rattling, just the retainer pins are different. Instead of a hairpin style cotter pin to retain the pad retainer pins, they have the rounded ring-style retainer wrapped around the head like the retainer pins in the first video had - the ones that really did have to be driven out with a pin punch and hammer. Of course the Benz calipers are smaller and they're made out of cast iron by ATE, but the design is remarkably similar.

It's a small world.