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      05-21-2008, 01:17 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post
As we've said numerous times before, you only really notice it when the engine is cold. When its warmed up, its not a issue at all and something you quickly adapt to.

I beg to differ. It's there whether it's warmed up or not. It might be a tad better but not much. It is something to adapt to. But if you like the immediate response of the E46 SMG then this might be a bit of a bummer.
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      05-21-2008, 01:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by brendanwp View Post
I have driven the Ferrari F1 transmission (f430) as well as the E46 SMG. The F1 is the best by far, so maybe its because of what he was comparing it to. I would think in a $200k plus car the system would be better then one that costs $65k. Common sense. I would be more interested in the SMG vs. DCT comparisons.

The SMG is much more responsive off the line. BUT the shifts are way slower and much more harsher than the DCT. Also the DCT downshifts much quicker and smoother in terms of rev matching.
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      05-21-2008, 01:21 PM   #25
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The misinformation continues... BTW for those that do not know I am a M-DCT owner/driver and am well past my first service.

There is a feeling of sluggishness you will notice when you first start to drive a M-DCT M3. It will be there in the Normal and Sport throttle settings. I have not used Sport Plus much but expect it to be there as well. All I think this is is a fairly slow de-clutch when starting out from a dead stop UNDER LOW THROTTLE conditions. The transmission mode S or D nor any of the numbered Drivelogic settings have very little to do with this. The way to get this to change is to simply give it more throttle. Problem fixed. I know I for one have been gentle on the car, breaking it in conservatively and according to BMW guidelines. As well with a new tranny and something as different as M-DCT is, most proceed a bit slowly. These issues certainly contribute to the observations of "lag".

Let me appeal to logic. How can the car, when capable of 0-60 in 4.1 s and 0-100 in 9.4 s be "slow" or "sluggish off the line? IT ISN'T, period.

Although I have not used LC yet, I have gone for aggressive take offs in S6 with MDM engaged (the aggressive DSC setting that allows limited wheel slip but still has DSC on) and all I can say it WOW. You get to redline so fast in first, limited wheelspin and BAM you are getting the shift lights to hit 2nd. There is no lag nor disappointment whatsoever.

As far as the comparisons with the E46 M3: How many folks who came from the E36 M3 (maybe even modded) to the E46 M3 felt the E36 M3 was faster, or at least more astutely noticed that it only FELT faster. It did FEEL faster but it clearly wasn't. Sorry guys this is simply refinement. Get used to it. Same thing here comparing E46 and E92.

Footie: We have already been through the issue (ad infinitum) of whether or not S4,S5 and S6 and the jerk they provide on shift improves acceleration. All you have to do is notice the wheel spin/chirps on shifts due to the jerk and you can conclude immediately and clearly that these modes and the jerk is faster then without them. Sure maybe not .5 s faster to 60 or 100 but it will be noticeable and measureable. S3 and lower Drivelogic modes just do not provide jerk nor chirp on shift at large throttle. Bruce A. agreed with this on a technical and experiential basis as well. YOU ARE WRONG HERE but just won't admit it. JERK = CHIRP = BETTER acceleration.

So in conclusion, you will notice this "lag" but it disappears the more throttle you use. Add in all the other benefits of M-DCT and its perfect and blazingly fast shifts and this really just becomes something you will get used to. Do test drive a M-DCT if you are concerned. Test drive it ONLY after proper break in and don't hesitate to give it some juice.

I am thrilled with this transmission.
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      05-21-2008, 01:21 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihyln View Post
<- I'm impatient and if there is indeed a problem then I could get the car much sooner with a 6MT. However my wife demands that I get DCT "just in case I have to drive it".

I really wanted a manual since it's going to be my car but I keep losing out on this argument.
Choose your battles dude. It's not worth arguing with a woman. She'll win 9 times out of 10.
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      05-21-2008, 01:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
It's not worth arguing with a woman. She'll win 9 times out of 10.


Unfortunately, I have only been able to test 6MT and all DCT cars are deliveries for customers so I cannot take them for a spin to see for myself. I just want to make sure I am making the right decision (and fishing for a reason to get the car sooner)
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      05-21-2008, 02:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The misinformation continues... BTW for those that do not know I am a M-DCT owner/driver and am well past my first service.

There is a feeling of sluggishness you will notice when you first start to drive a M-DCT M3. It will be there in the Normal and Sport throttle settings. I have not used Sport Plus much but expect it to be there as well. All I think this is is a fairly slow de-clutch when starting out from a dead stop UNDER LOW THROTTLE conditions. The transmission mode S or D nor any of the numbered Drivelogic settings have very little to do with this. The way to get this to change is to simply give it more throttle. Problem fixed. I know I for one have been gentle on the car, breaking it in conservatively and according to BMW guidelines. As well with a new tranny and something as different as M-DCT is, most proceed a bit slowly. These issues certainly contribute to the observations of "lag".

Let me appeal to logic. How can the car, when capable of 0-60 in 4.1 s and 0-100 in 9.4 s be "slow" or "sluggish off the line? IT ISN'T, period.

Although I have not used LC yet, I have gone for aggressive take offs in S6 with MDM engaged (the aggressive DSC setting that allows limited wheel slip but still has DSC on) and all I can say it WOW. You get to redline so fast in first, limited wheelspin and BAM you are getting the shift lights to hit 2nd. There is no lag nor disappointment whatsoever.

As far as the comparisons with the E46 M3: How many folks who came from the E36 M3 (maybe even modded) to the E46 M3 felt the E36 M3 was faster, or at least more astutely noticed that it only FELT faster. It did FEEL faster but it clearly wasn't. Sorry guys this is simply refinement. Get used to it. Same thing here comparing E46 and E92.

Footie: We have already been through the issue (ad infinitum) of whether or not S4,S5 and S6 and the jerk they provide on shift improves acceleration. All you have to do is notice the wheel spin/chirps on shifts due to the jerk and you can conclude immediately and clearly that these modes and the jerk is faster then without them. Sure maybe not .5 s faster to 60 or 100 but it will be noticeable and measureable. S3 and lower Drivelogic modes just do not provide jerk nor chirp on shift at large throttle. Bruce A. agreed with this on a technical and experiential basis as well. YOU ARE WRONG HERE but just won't admit it. JERK = CHIRP = BETTER acceleration.

So in conclusion, you will notice this "lag" but it disappears the more throttle you use. Add in all the other benefits of M-DCT and its perfect and blazingly fast shifts and this really just becomes something you will get used to. Do test drive a M-DCT if you are concerned. Test drive it ONLY after proper break in and don't hesitate to give it some juice.

I am thrilled with this transmission.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. this is what i was looking for.
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      05-21-2008, 02:56 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Footie: We have already been through the issue (ad infinitum) of whether or not S4,S5 and S6 and the jerk they provide on shift improves acceleration. All you have to do is notice the wheel spin/chirps on shifts due to the jerk and you can conclude immediately and clearly that these modes and the jerk is faster then without them. Sure maybe not .5 s faster to 60 or 100 but it will be noticeable and measureable. S3 and lower Drivelogic modes just do not provide jerk nor chirp on shift at large throttle. Bruce A. agreed with this on a technical and experiential basis as well. YOU ARE WRONG HERE but just won't admit it. JERK = CHIRP = BETTER acceleration.
swamp,

I'm only pulling your chain because I know I can get the desired reaction.

Childish I know but fun all the same.

I also agree the lag is there no matter which throttle setting you pick, some of it has to do with the gearbox but not all. The manual also needs a good poke of throttle to get off the line and the M-DCT is probably increasing this effect.

P.S.

My comments about wanting to get a true measurement of whether the jerk is improvement thing is out of personal interest, nothing more. One thing I would really like to know is what the actual shift times between each of the settings and how they differ some either the (VAG)DSG or (GTR)DCT.

Surely there is nothing wrong with wanting to understand the differences between the settings and how the surge is actually affecting the performance or are the kind of man that just goes on faith when ever it suits.
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      05-21-2008, 03:00 PM   #30
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I'd love to see some timing measurements on the DCT also. But what sort of instrument has the resolution to be able to show it accurately? I suspect my AP-22 doesn't (ok, I know it doesn't). How much would such an instrument cost? Hopefully a magazine will take this up.
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      05-21-2008, 03:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I'd love to see some timing measurements on the DCT also. But what sort of instrument has the resolution to be able to show it accurately? I suspect my AP-22 doesn't (ok, I know it doesn't). How much would such an instrument cost? Hopefully a magazine will take this up.
GTech Pro does not even work on my car at all (can't get a rpm lock). DL1 Race Technology DL1 is only at 100Hz. It may get a decent timing of a shifts but will not provide details among modes with certainty. I have speced and priced out a DAQ/accel system to do the measurements but it is more $ than I am willing to spend (about $600) and you end up with a cool but non-automotive specific system that is good mostly only for this task. Don't count on any real science/engineering measurements from the mags...
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      05-21-2008, 03:21 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
swamp,

I'm only pulling your chain because I know I can get the desired reaction.

Childish I know but fun all the same.

I also agree the lag is there no matter which throttle setting you pick, some of it has to do with the gearbox but not all. The manual also needs a good poke of throttle to get off the line and the M-DCT is probably increasing this effect.

P.S.

My comments about wanting to get a true measurement of whether the jerk is improvement thing is out of personal interest, nothing more. One thing I would really like to know is what the actual shift times between each of the settings and how they differ some either the (VAG)DSG or (GTR)DCT.

Surely there is nothing wrong with wanting to understand the differences between the settings and how the surge is actually affecting the performance or are the kind of man that just goes on faith when ever it suits.
Thanks foot, indeed real mature.

I agree that a measurement tells all and I would like to see it. I am keen to have detailed measurements of many different systems. However, physics>experience as it does not lie. On this issue the answer is clear. This is not faith vs. measurement. It is physics vs. your rumors and "inside" sources.
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      05-21-2008, 03:22 PM   #33
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Expect software updates by September/Oktober.

(was told so upon my visit to M-werke a few weeks ago.)

P.
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      05-21-2008, 03:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Panerex View Post
Expect software updates by September/Oktober.

(was told so upon my visit to M-werke a few weeks ago.)

P.
Cool, great to hear. Doubt it will affect this issue directly. The smoothness of the last automated change down to 1st when braking and at very low speeds could use just a touch of improvement and consistency. Sometimes you get just a tiny thump. I described this fully in other posts.
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      05-21-2008, 03:56 PM   #35
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Has anyone said DCT sucks besides someone with 6MT? I don't think so. Why not drop 2.7k on leading edge tech. It's awesome.
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      05-21-2008, 04:35 PM   #36
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First year kinks....Ill be waiting patiently. Still enjoying MY E46M3 for the moment.
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      05-21-2008, 04:44 PM   #37
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Quote:
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First year kinks....Ill be waiting patiently. Still enjoying MY E46M3 for the moment.
Thus far from my fairly detailed use (no track use yet) it is a fairly drastic overstatement to say that the M-DCT has any "kinks". Enjoy your car it is great, I had one as well, but I do think you are being overly conservative and or harsh in thinking you need to wait for M-DCT improvements.
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      05-21-2008, 04:49 PM   #38
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First year kinks....Ill be waiting patiently. Still enjoying MY E46M3 for the moment.
Then DCT2 is just around the corner.
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      05-21-2008, 05:22 PM   #39
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Having over 2000 miles with M-DCT, I completely agree with Swamp. The throttle response you feel is determined by your actions with the pedal. For instance, when pulling out of the parking lot, you are really light on the pedal so it feels sluggish (more like "low speed assistant" mode). Now be more aggressive with the pedal and you remove the sluggish feeling. It does take time to get use to it, but once you figure out how to handle the pedal, everything is perfect. Like Swamp stated, just push the pedal more.
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      05-21-2008, 05:50 PM   #40
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I also agree with Swamp and SMSgt B . The initial "sluggishness" is only do to initial throttle setting and application. In Sport or Sport plus with even what would be called "light" throttle, the response is near instantaneous. This is another example of persons trying to find a problem when one does not exist.
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      05-21-2008, 06:17 PM   #41
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Swamp and SMSgt B, how about some launch mode videos. Hell, I'd be happy with a launch mode description. Have either of you at least engaged launch mode to see what the standard launch mode RPM is?

Senior B, are you still in Germany or have you now come home to the states?
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      05-21-2008, 06:19 PM   #42
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The problem isn't the transmission, or the throttle.

The problem is the M3 needs more torque to move 3700+ lbs off the line.



That's the liquor talking... of course.
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      05-21-2008, 06:23 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Delbruck View Post
The problem isn't the transmission, or the throttle.

The problem is the M3 needs more torque to move 3700+ lbs off the line.



That's the liquor talking... of course.
You know better! What counts is torque at the wheels delivered across a large rpm band per unit weight. Here the M3 delivers and the numbers show it.

P.S. Could not find my darn key this morning so I have the E36 at work today. Don't plan on a test ride.
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      05-21-2008, 06:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
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What counts is torque at the wheels delivered across a large rpm band per unit weight.
Hmmm... I need to read that sentence reallllly slowly......

I think what I was getting at was... well, diesel engines have tons of torque so they can move from a stop with all that weight... errr, right??

swamp, you know your stuff so I will just have to say OK!
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