Is there an EDR or "black box" in our M3's?

[kbk_75]

Originally Posted by knifegun

Yes. It is up to the BMW of NA rep that checks the car out. The dealer can also help pursuade the rep. That is why it is important to purchase your car from a good dealership and have a good relationship with them. A good dealership is paramount when you spend this kind of cash IMHO.

+1 totally agree, especially when we pay 3.5x the price in India that you guys pay for your cars in the U.S.

[icemang17]

I also wonder about this......especially since all service is paid for by BMW.....however BMW has to know that customers who buy M cars are going to DRIVE them the way they are designed.... So by voiding warranty and service of their premier cars and customers is going to PISS OFF a core group of your best customers.....

With that said....I do track my M3 on occasion, but do not feel I abuse it.....just drive it as it was intended to be driven.... if I had my warranty-service voided....its safe to say I would NEVER by a BMW again and everyone I know would hear about it in great detail.... Being that sales of luxury items like BMW's is down right now, I don't think pissing off the few people that still buy things is very smart....

[lucid]

I think most folks are missing the point here. The car is a machine with published operational ranges for key variables. I don't see how they can deny warrany unless one has operated the machinery outside of those ranges, or done something that is explicitly stated in the manual as a warranty voiding event.

For instance, if you don't overrev your engine by mis-shifting or removing the rev-limiter, and if the oil temps were in the accepetable range, and there were no error messages present in the system, AND assuming you have kept everything stock, I don't see how they can claim you have "abused" the engine. It doesn't matter if you have driven it at 7500 rpms at 150 mph for a long time, or that you were at full throttle 80% of the time. Where does it say in the manual that you can't do that--with the exception of break-in?

At the end of the day, there are 3 main reasons how a dealer might deny warranty:

1. You drove the car outside of the published operational range, and/or ignored warning messages.
2. You modified functional components. In this case, you are simply giving them an excuse to do what they would maybe like to do. You can fight back and say the modification did not cause the problem and all that, but they don't need to prove anything (they would need to present you their reasons though) and you do.
3. You used the car in a competitive event, which is clearly stated in the manual. They can't determine if you have done that by looking at some kind of generic log (with a detailed log, they could by identifying patterns maybe). The fact that they can see you have done 150 doesn't mean you we were competing. I assume they can check entry lists in competitive events to find your name and car or something if you indeed did compete with the car.

Maybe the only minor exception is the clutch, but I don't see how they can tell if you've been riding the clutch or not. They would have to log engine speed vs vehicle speed at high precision for long periods of time and look for strange patterns, and I doubt that. I guess if you show up with a burnt out clutch every 4000 miles, that's another story. Even then, they would have to replace it under warranty the first time as they can't prove that you've abused it.

[rfedele]

Originally Posted by lucid

2. You modified functional components. In this case, you are simply giving them an excuse to do what they would maybe like to do. You can fight back and say the modification did not cause the problem and all that, but they don't need to prove anything (they would need to present you their reasons though) and you do.

Some case law interpreting The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act provides the manufacturer must show the modification has caused the defect.

[rfedele]

Originally Posted by watrob

It's only a problem for people who break the law, this privacy thing only upsets people & companies that wish to hide something.

Here in the US we have a constitutional right to liberty and privacy(via case law interpreting the const.). The reasoning you espouse above sounds like Fascism to me.

Is an illegal search of your bedroom while you're making love to your wife ok so long as they don't arrest you afterward because you weren't guilty of anything.

Perhaps I have an extensive pornography collection that is perfectly legal but I don't want the neighbors aware of it.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" Thomas Jefferson

Now, on the other hand, we chose to purchase these cars and how they come equipped from the manufacturer is not up for debate as to the black box. Driving is a privilege not a right.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by rfedele

Some case law interpreting The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act provides the manufacturer must show the modification has caused the defect.

Based on what I've read on this, the converse is true, but I am not a lawyer. Any lawyers who had experience with this who can offer opinion?

Even if what you are saying it true, the manufacturer would simply deny the warranty first, and then you'd need to take them to court, which is not a simple process. Some overboosted 335 owners have experienced this recently. BMW did not have to prove anything to anyone to void their warranties, but told them the warranty was voided because of aftermarket parts, or some general statement to that effect.

[rfedele]

Originally Posted by lucid

Even if what you are saying it true, the manufacturer would simply deny the warranty first, and then you'd need to take them to court, which is not a simple process. Some overboosted 335 owners have experienced this recently. BMW did not have to prove anything to anyone to void their warranties, but told them the warranty was voided because of aftermarket parts, or some general statement to that effect.

True, they would likely deny the warranty claim, but if pressed in court the burden is on the manufacturer to prove the modification caused the failure.

For instance, if you replace your exhaust, they could deny an engine claim, but wouldn't (I hope) be able to prove it actually caused the failure.

[///M_Wraith]

Originally Posted by Kobaiyashi

a salesmen told me that if you ride your clutch, they'll know about it via the car's computer. Have no idea if that's true or not....

LOL. Why am I laffing at this?

[kenwelch]

Here is a link to an interesting article on the M5 and EDR that includes quotes from BMW rep.

http://www.ocala.com/article/2008013...S01&source=RSS

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by kenwelch

Here is a link to an interesting article on the M5 and EDR that includes quotes from BMW rep.

A little odd that the data would "not be accurate enough".

[mkoesel]

BMW's verbiage is ambiguous about this in the manual. From Page 122 (non-iDrive manual):

Event data recorders

You vehicle may be equipped with one or several measuring or diagnostic modules or a device for recording or sending certain vehicle data or information. In addition, if you have a signed service contract for BMW Assist, certain vehicle data may be transmitted or recorded in order to facilitate the corresponding services.

[E. Honda]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

BMW's verbiage is ambiguous about this in the manual. From Page 122 (non-iDrive manual):

Good looking out. Too lazy to read the manual.

[GregW / Oregon]

Originally Posted by E. Honda

Good looking out. Too lazy to read the manual.

"Too lazy to read the manual"? Like it takes a minute out of your life? Good attitude. BTW, I'm an ex-Bakersfield guy.

[pjlivolsi]

Don't bet on it. BMW doesn't make the decision on the "Black Box" the Insurance industry does and they tell the Congress to pass the appropriate legislation or influence the Federal Highway Saftey Department and there you have it. If BMW can tell you via on-board computer that your oil is low or your brake pads are low by Satellite then its a piece of cake as to your driving history. Insurance companies will be the ruination of this country. They do what they do for the sole purpose of reducing their RISKS period. Its like going to a casino where the house knows the outcome of a bet before you place it.

[abbood]

I know that they count how many LC's you did,, so if it was too much they wont fix the broken parts

[bher]

I am sure the car records the data.

With my Elise once chating with the dealer he printed the data after linking his diagnosis computer under the dashboard and BANG: give me a list with the 10 highest RPM, mileage AND engine temperature at that time, then the %age of time between 0-30 mph, 30-60 mph, etc till over 150 mph. I was really surprised because this small piece of paper the size of a bill of the corner's shop was telling more about my use of the car than any inspection...;-)

If Lotus is able to do it, certainly BMW can produce 10x more data

[enforcerman]

Allow me to shed some light on this issue. All vehicles equipped with airbags have some sort of control module to monitor the car. This module is ALWAYS running and checking for parameters where it will deploy your airbags or seatbelt pretensioners. This modules main goal in life is to deploy saftety features. With this being said, after its done its job, SOME of these modules then attempt to write why they deployed your airbags. Writing this data is done by the "EDR" functionality of the module. There is no dedicated "black box" in your vehicle. Right now, vehicles that are downloadable by the CDR software varies. Generally speaking, all late model GM's, and some late model FORDS and Chryslers can be downloaded.

Now, in MY 2013 all vehicles sold in the US will be downloadable (as currently plannedy by NHTSA). Want more information on this? Google NHTSA 49 CFR 563.

As for BMW having a way to see vehicle speed data: I have no doubt they have this ability. Most OEM's have tools to view this data, but they have no opened up their code to the CDR software people.

[ILLCOMM]

Bottom line: the car is designed to be revved high and run fast. You will not be legally denied warranty work if you didn't do anything stupid. Stupid = money shifting, etc.