Who is Michael Cooper? M3 driver in CTS-V Challenge!

[330CIZHP]

I was quoting Canadian figures. A 2005 CTS-V did lose close to 68 - 70% of its value in Canada in just 4 years. I can easily pick up a 2005 CTS-V for $24,000 - $26,000. Right now, E46 M3 has been holding its value extremely well. A 2005 E46 will still in Canada retail for over $40,000.

Originally Posted by foosh

I just did a search of Autotrader, and I can pick up a 2005 M3 Coupe all day long for $26K easily. The MSRP on the 05 CTS-V was $50K (but they were available new for low $40's). 2005 M5 started at $85K.

You were right about today's asking price, but that is NOT a 70% loss of their value in 4 years, which would make them available at $15K. If you find one at that price, let me know, I'll buy it.

The '05 V and the current model are about as similar as the E46 and E9X.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by m7suther

Is it not crazy that we are congratulating someone for hanging in there with a car that is 20 thousand less than a M3?

Um... CTS-V is priced almost the same as the M3. It starts a bit higher in fact, although it has fewer options. A loaded one will still be in the mid-60s though, while a loaded M3 (sedan) will touch 70k.

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

The M5 is not in the same market as the CTS-V. The CTS-V really is a competitor for the M3 and the C63 in price and size. It is actually a quite small car. No more room than a 3 series.

Joe, I thought the CTS was bigger than the 3 series - more 5 series in size? Isn't that the whole reason that GM is building the ATS now (another car, BTW, that has my curiosity piqued - especially if they do a "V")?

[quackbury]

Well, I for one cross-shopped a CTS-V before I got my M3, and I was MIGHTILY impressed. (Believe it or not, Bob Lutz himself set up the extended test drive. Way cool!)

The CTS-V felt midway between my former 550 and my M3 in size. It did a LOT of things amazingly well. I was prepared to love the motor, but I was blown away by the braking feel, the interior, and the overall ride quality - being a BMW fan boy, I did not think the General had it in him.

In the end, I fell in love with the M3 and had the following issues with the CTS-V:

• Chrome wheels were way too "bling", at least here in Boston;
• I hated the color choices;
• I missed iDrive. Really!
• I was shopping in February, GMAC was out of the leasing business, and I was afraid to own a CTS-V if the General was going Tango Uniform;
• Most tellingly, I was in a HUGE Cadillac dealership, and there was only one other buyer in the store that day. An elderly couple and (wait for it)... the husband was on an oxygen tank. I could not make that up! As good as the product was, I could not picture myself in that demographic.

But to my amazement, the Caddy was really, really good. I would have taken the CTS-V over another 550 in a New York minute. I'm one of those folks who feels competition improves the breed, and I think it's great GM can make such a capable high performance ride.

[cjfairman]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

The M5 is not in the same market as the CTS-V. The CTS-V really is a competitor for the M3 and the C63 in price and size. It is actually a quite small car. No more room than a 3 series.

Joe,
Not sure about this. Read Motor Trend comparison from a few months ago. The CTS-V and M5 are within fractions of inches of each other in almost every dimension. Head room, trunk room, leg room, wheelbase etc. all less than an inch apart. The m3 and c63 are only close to the V in price, but in all dimensions the M5 was the target market for ctsv and it comes in at 30k less than the m5.

I would also venture the buyer of a CTSV is looking for a slightly larger vehicle than the M3. I love the M3, but its too small for me, wife, 3 kids and lots of golf clubs. The CTS and/or 5 series is just a touch larger than M3, Audi 4, and C63.

Caddy failed miserably when they tried a smaller car. I think it was the Allente, and there was a Cimeron. Caddy buyers don't identify well with small. i think the CTS will be as small as they get, besides the very niche XLR 2 seater.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by cjfairman

Caddy failed miserably when they tried a smaller car. I think it was the Allente, and there was a Cimeron. Caddy buyers don't identify well with small. i think the CTS will be as small as they get, besides the very niche XLR 2 seater.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/c...eries-fighter/

Caddy failed miserably at plenty in the past. But lately they are on something of a roll. I hope the ATS is the real deal. I was worried they'd do something real nuts like try to build it on FWD platform (like the utter fail that was the BTS in Europe). Luckily they are going RWD.

That XTS is a bit worrisome though. But if Lexus can have their FWD bread-and-butter car, well, I guess Cadillac can too.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

WTF?? Since when did CTS-V cost $20K less??? It was supposed to be an M5 competitor at a much lower prices. It costs well over $70K in Canada and CTS-V have been known to lose over 70% of their value in the first 4 years. One can pick up a loaded 2005 CTS-V for $24,000 - 26,000 easily.

The current gen CTS V should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as the last gen. The old one was a pos that had major tranny/differential issues on top of all the lesser, but frequent problems. The new one is what GM wishes they built the first time around.

I was shopping the two cars being discussed here 4 days ago in our market. The V is offering $6K off on '09's. I could get the car I wanted (almost fully loaded) for $72K.

I was then at Calgary BMW and was discussing an '09 M3 sedan that was not fully loaded (but almost)....$89K.

So the difference is $17K in our market. The CTS V is easily the best bang for your buck in the luxury performance segment.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by Radiation Joe

The M5 is not in the same market as the CTS-V. The CTS-V really is a competitor for the M3 and the C63 in price and size. It is actually a quite small car. No more room than a 3 series.

Sorry, but this is clearly wrong. Obviously you have not been in one.
The CTS V is a direct competitor to the M5 in every way except price. It has all the luxury, technology, size and performance at a fraction of the price.

Hopefully the new M5 will justify the price premium.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by quackbury

Well, I for one cross-shopped a CTS-V before I got my M3, and I was MIGHTILY impressed. (Believe it or not, Bob Lutz himself set up the extended test drive. Way cool!)

The CTS-V felt midway between my former 550 and my M3 in size. It did a LOT of things amazingly well. I was prepared to love the motor, but I was blown away by the braking feel, the interior, and the overall ride quality - being a BMW fan boy, I did not think the General had it in him.

In the end, I fell in love with the M3 and had the following issues with the CTS-V:

• Chrome wheels were way too "bling", at least here in Boston;
• I hated the color choices;
• I missed iDrive. Really!
• I was shopping in February, GMAC was out of the leasing business, and I was afraid to own a CTS-V if the General was going Tango Uniform;
• Most tellingly, I was in a HUGE Cadillac dealership, and there was only one other buyer in the store that day. An elderly couple and (wait for it)... the husband was on an oxygen tank. I could not make that up! As good as the product was, I could not picture myself in that demographic.

But to my amazement, the Caddy was really, really good. I would have taken the CTS-V over another 550 in a New York minute. I'm one of those folks who feels competition improves the breed, and I think it's great GM can make such a capable high performance ride.

Totally agree with you...especially regarding the comments I bolded. I have been shopping a '10 535xi, the V and the E class. I test drove the 535 the other night and was amazed at the new iDrive. The V performs like few cars out there, but there are still some shortcomings overall.

[330CIZHP]

I have no idea how you got CAD $89,000 for an M3 sedan. I priced out a 2008 M3 sedan with my friend's brother in law who works in the BMW Heritage branch. I was really impressed considering my ex-manager's lousy and girly SLK55 AMG with only 350 HP cost him $95,000 after everything.

With all the important packages such as, M-Drive package, 19 inch rims, EDC, 6 speed manual, it came out to be CAD $78,000 with everything including freight, taxes etc.

As mentioned in my previous post that M3 holds its value way better than the CTS-V. Go check the autotrader.ca for CTS-V 2005 vs E46 M3 2005, the E46 M3 still goes goes for well above $40,000 while the CTS-V are being sold for only $23,000 - $26,000

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

The current gen CTS V should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as the last gen. The old one was a pos that had major tranny/differential issues on top of all the lesser, but frequent problems. The new one is what GM wishes they built the first time around.

I was shopping the two cars being discussed here 4 days ago in our market. The V is offering $6K off on '09's. I could get the car I wanted (almost fully loaded) for $72K.

I was then at Calgary BMW and was discussing an '09 M3 sedan that was not fully loaded (but almost)....$89K.

So the difference is $17K in our market. The CTS V is easily the best bang for your buck in the luxury performance segment.

[foosh]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

I have no idea how you got CAD $89,000 for an M3 sedan. I priced out a 2008 M3 sedan with my friend's brother in law who works in the BMW Heritage branch. I was really impressed considering my ex-manager's lousy and girly SLK55 AMG with only 350 HP cost him $95,000 after everything.

With all the important packages such as, M-Drive package, 19 inch rims, EDC, 6 speed manual, it came out to be CAD $78,000 with everything including freight, taxes etc.

As mentioned in my previous post that M3 holds its value way better than the CTS-V. Go check the autotrader.ca for CTS-V 2005 vs E46 M3 2005, the E46 M3 still goes goes for well above $40,000 while the CTS-V are being sold for only $23,000 - $26,000

I actually have no reason to doubt you, and given what you say, the difference in the US and Canada markets are rather weird. As I also said earlier, the 05 CTS V and 05 E46 M3 are both listed in the $25-29K range today.

Considering that the initial 2005 CTS V MSRP (not sales) price was $50K, that's about 12% annual depreciation based on MSRP price, which is not bad, and, as discussed ad nauseum here, the current model is far more desirable.

The current 08 M3 has certainly not fared as well, judging by sticker price. I purchased my E93 new in March 09 for more than 20% below MRSP. Obviously, the difference between economic conditions in 2005 vs. today have a lot to do with that.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

I have no idea how you got CAD $89,000 for an M3 sedan. I priced out a 2008 M3 sedan with my friend's brother in law who works in the BMW Heritage branch. I was really impressed considering my ex-manager's lousy and girly SLK55 AMG with only 350 HP cost him $95,000 after everything.

With all the important packages such as, M-Drive package, 19 inch rims, EDC, 6 speed manual, it came out to be CAD $78,000 with everything including freight, taxes etc.

As mentioned in my previous post that M3 holds its value way better than the CTS-V. Go check the autotrader.ca for CTS-V 2005 vs E46 M3 2005, the E46 M3 still goes goes for well above $40,000 while the CTS-V are being sold for only $23,000 - $26,000

The quote I received was from Calgary BMW on Heritage. I'd be happy to email it to you since you don't seem to believe me.

The car you are describing is almost base, you're leaving out extended leather, premium sound, nav, DCT, and everything else.

As I said....who cares what the last gen V is worth....it was crap. Have a look at values for a recent model M3 vs a recent model V. On both autotrader.ca and autotrader.com the V is holding it's own resale wise.

[Gearhead999s]

A Cadilac CTS-V was never on my radar scope for one big reason.I had a couple of C5 Corvettes and the service that I got from my local dealers was total crap.I vowed that I would never have another GM vehicle after the issues that I had.My BMW&Mercedes dealer experiances have been a polar opposite and it will take a lot for me to reconsider owning a GM product.

[Cabinetman]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

The current gen CTS V should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as the last gen. The old one was a pos that had major tranny/differential issues on top of all the lesser, but frequent problems. The new one is what GM wishes they built the first time around.

I was shopping the two cars being discussed here 4 days ago in our market. The V is offering $6K off on '09's. I could get the car I wanted (almost fully loaded) for $72K.

I was then at Calgary BMW and was discussing an '09 M3 sedan that was not fully loaded (but almost)....$89K.

So the difference is $17K in our market. The CTS V is easily the best bang for your buck in the luxury performance segment.

Are you thinking about getting out of the F? If so, why?

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by Cabinetman

Are you thinking about getting out of the F? If so, why?

Nope. Love my F.

I need a third vehicle again since we just sold our X5. I already have an amazing SUV in the ML and a fun smaller car in the F, so I'm totally undecided.

The logical part of my brain (read the wife ) thinks that I should be getting a 535xi, or E class, or X35d. The other part says M3, C63 or V. The V makes more sense for fun as it's bigger and there are some amazing deals out there. I just need something to keep me moderately entertained until the next gen M5 is out when I'm ready to get rid of the F.

Glad to hear that you're loving your M3. Great car after your F. It's great to read some of your objective comparisons on both sites

[330CIZHP]

All of the packages that "truly matter" were in there.

99% of M3 buyers do not get extended leather. It included fox red leather, which is good enough. It is not even something that is offered in most luxury cars anyway. BMW is kind of unique. M3 in Canada comes standard with premium Logic 7 sound system and I don't care about DCT since I personally believe it is a waste of money and 6 speed manual is the way to go in a sports car (ofcourse, my personal opinion). The only package I omitted was "executive package", which are a few luxury items like electric sunshade, parking distance control etc. that are useless. Most of the people do need these items in an M3 anyway.

Plus BMW was throwing full cold weather package in for free, which was worth $5000 at the time (heated seats, headlight washers etc.)

Navigation was included in the package since you cannot have M-Drive without Navi. All the important packages for performance like electronic suspension damping control, M-Drive package, 19 inch wheels. I was not pricing a luxury first car, but a performance first car.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

The quote I received was from Calgary BMW on Heritage. I'd be happy to email it to you since you don't seem to believe me.

The car you are describing is almost base, you're leaving out extended leather, premium sound, nav, DCT, and everything else.

As I said....who cares what the last gen V is worth....it was crap. Have a look at values for a recent model M3 vs a recent model V. On both autotrader.ca and autotrader.com the V is holding it's own resale wise.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

I am not sure if the Navi was included or not in one of the packages. All the important packages for performance like electronic suspension damping control, M-Drive package, 19 inch wheels. I was not pricing a luxury first car, but a performance first car.

Premium sound is not included in all Canadian cars. The Audiophile package is a $1500 option.

Go price the exact car you just described....regular paint, 19" wheels, Audiophile, M-Drive, EDC and regular leather (not extended) on the website.

It comes to $79 100. You'll pay GST, freight, delivery, clear bra, etc. on top of that. Easily $85K. Even a completely base M3 sedan with zero options will be $75K. Whatever price you have in your head isn't current. Check out the website or go to the dealership to see for yourself.

[330CIZHP]

Dude you are arguing about useless things. The premium sound system that is optional in US is included standard in M3 in Canada called "logic 7 premium sound system". Ever heard of Logic 7??? Audiophile Package is for the extreme music listeners and considered way above premium. Most people say the Logic 7 is already way more than what most customers are used to. Even if I include the audiophile package, after everything included it is $81,000. How are you getting $85,000 before taxes, freight etc.??

Secondly, yes I had priced it out with all the options on a 2010 M3 sedan and it came out to $77,000 without freight, GST, delivery charges etc. all included in it. You want me try and get a print out summary for it with all details?? Would you believe then?? Plus the cold weather package is being offered free, which is worth $4000 - $5000.

It is only arguing about useless things since they are charging that much money because they can get customers to buy at the price. That is why economics dictate "consumer will pay what the market will bare". BTW, I also tried pricing out an IS-F with the only option package available and after everything it came out to be $78,000. It is barely cheaper than the M3 unless they are giving huge discounts.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Premium sound is not included in all Canadian cars. The Audiophile package is a $1500 option.

Go price the exact car you just described....regular paint, 19" wheels, Audiophile, M-Drive, EDC and regular leather (not extended) on the website.

It comes to $79 100. You'll pay GST, freight, delivery, clear bra, etc. on top of that. Easily $85K. Even a completely base M3 sedan with zero options will be $75K. Whatever price you have in your head isn't current. Check out the website or go to the dealership to see for yourself.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by foosh

Bob Lutz is nearly 80 years old.

Major respect: he's hard core, and passionate about cars. Got to that. Also, this was a good marketing exercise - I even saw it on Bloomberg TV.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

99% of M3 buyers do not get extended leather.

Doubt that last statement's valid or BMW AG would not offer Extended (not profitable enough due to lack of scale). A minority, yes.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

It comes to $79 100. You'll pay GST, freight, delivery, clear bra, etc. on top of that. Easily $85K. Even a completely base M3 sedan with zero options will be $75K. Whatever price you have in your head isn't current. Check out the website or go to the dealership to see for yourself.

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Even if I include the audiophile package, after everything included it is $81,000. How are you getting $85,000 before taxes, freight etc.??.

Read the post clearly before responding. I clearly stated that it would be $85K all in.

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

BTW, I also tried pricing out an IS-F with the only option package available and after everything it came out to be $78,000. It is barely cheaper than the M3 unless they are giving huge discounts.

The '10 IS F is $72 751 fully loaded, including block heater and all weather mats. Still a far cry from a base $81K M3 (both before tax, freight, bra, etc.).

http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience...5C2V&year=2010

[Cdnrockies]

Btw, sorry for the threadjack Michael Cooper. You're still the man!

[330CIZHP]

So M3 for $82000 - 84000 ($77,000 before taxes etc.) vs IS-F for $79,000 ($72,500 before taxes etc.) both all inclusive.

Not to mention, the M3 comes with fully electronically controlled adjustable suspension (EDC) that IS-F does not have, which alone is worth $2500. The M-Drive has several features for throttle mapping etc. Previously, the IS-F did not have LSD either, but they have included it now.

At the end, it is an M3 so the premium alone for this is worth it. Period.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

The '10 IS F is $72 751 fully loaded, including block heater and all weather mats. Still a far cry from a base $81K M3 (both before tax, freight, bra, etc.).

http://www.lexus.ca/lexus/experience...5C2V&year=2010