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09-14-2013, 10:33 AM | #67 | ||
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I still mod my car. For example I put in some GC camber plates. I gained increased performance, I lost some comfort. I understood that the GC plates can cause some noise and I was willing to make that trade off.
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09-14-2013, 10:37 AM | #68 | |||
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09-14-2013, 10:42 AM | #69 | |
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I can understand the skepticism though, I've been there myself, but it appears just about every motor that has been opened up for one reason or another has some bearing wear that is out of the norm based on what the experts here say. It's hard to deny all the mounting evidence.
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09-14-2013, 10:42 AM | #70 | |
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BMW engineers develop the cars with many aspects in mind, as bigjae1976 pointed out. When we mod something, we usually give up something else (e.g., comfort, reliability, longevity, etc.). So I agree that BMW engineers designed the best that they could under the financial constraints for the project and in trying to blend a number of aspects together. |
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09-14-2013, 03:09 PM | #71 |
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I am not a mechanic but I find it hard to believe that guys in this forum who live and breath engine stuff haven't yet figured out a way to check the condition of these f'ing bearings without having to foot a $2000+ bill.
After countless posts on this topic I did not see one person say "I bothered to pull out and inspect my bearings at XXX miles on the odo and found that they were perfectly allright". Which tells me that we really don't know as much as we think about this problem at all. |
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09-14-2013, 03:53 PM | #72 |
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I think he is just bummed, concerned, pissed off and frustrated that this problem exists and it has to be on his mind and that it isn't something that is easily but the to the back of one's mind. Hmmm, maybe that is just my thinking.
I asked an SA if he has heard anything about this. His response was that he was getting a lot of calls about having the bearing checked (add me to that inquiry). When I asked how much, he said $1,500.00 to have it checked only. TOP_GEAR is probably pissed like I am in that 1.5K to check it is about a few hundred short of just replacing the bearings and still knowing it won't fix the problem and worse. It would be someone's luck to have them replaced now, just to find one of the better solutions require the work to be done again. |
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09-14-2013, 05:00 PM | #73 | |
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I use to have a ton of faith in BMW engineers, but then the S54's started blowing up and BMW denied it and denied it, blaming the owners for "over reving" when the car was an SMG!!! Now we have engine builders here saying saying the clearances on our engines are below standard clearances. Now Clevite's white papers say if you're going to go tight, then use a thinner oil- which BMW does not recommend. That's my conclusion so far from all these threads. .
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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09-14-2013, 06:14 PM | #74 | |
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Every single post has its merit and place and is valid in the context of the discussion/argument. I thoroughly enjoy being a member of this forum because I value everyone's contribution and have received nothing but complements when I have posted. I think an apology will be appropriate and important for asking a respected fellow poster to "shut up". This will put an end to this unsavoury "bashing" that's now taking place and get on to discuss the real issue at hand.
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09-14-2013, 07:18 PM | #75 | |
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Unfortunately, due to the nature of a journal bearing the only way to positively confirm wear is through disassembly and inspection. Oil sampling and decreasing oil pressure are symptoms but the only way to confirm is disassembly as I have mentioned above! The main reason I am so adamant on clearances is due to the fact that there is no way to tell if a bearing is failing without invasive surgery. Hopefully this will solidify the importance of ensuring you have proper clearance upon assembly. To be quite honest, a rebuild for me takes more time in measuring and machine work by our machine shop than the assembly of the engine. On disassembly I measure, remeasure, and then measure a third time to confirm. Then on assembly I do it all over again! We document everything for warranty purposes. We measure main and rod journal diameters, main and rod bearing bore diameters, deck and block for trueness, liner protrusion, crank end play, just to name a few of the more important ones. Our large haul truck engines are worth about $1,000,000 each so my company is pretty adamant about documentation. Once the paper documentation is taken it is then entered into SAP and stays there attached to the engine ID along with oil analysis reports, service history, engine hours, repair history, fault code history...... ETC. |
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09-14-2013, 09:56 PM | #76 |
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My point exactly. You need to pay a steep price to figure out if you even have a problem at all! The "bearing replacement" fix and the "change to thinner oil" fix don't really fix the problem permanently. Machining the crank is what you have been recommending but at $5K it equals the cost of 2 bearing replacements and even though it makes logical sense to reduce the diameter of the crank it's not yet proven that this type of fix is in reality risk-free.
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09-14-2013, 10:58 PM | #77 | |
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09-15-2013, 12:33 AM | #78 | |
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The concensus to doing this as maintenance seems to be 60,000 miles. So you are right, for the price of two bearing swaps, you could get your crank ground and be done with the problem. Replacements every 60,000 miles and you can last up to 180,000 before the next replacement is needed. But for the guys who don't replace the bearings at all, I think you're going to find very few engines making it up to 150,000 miles, and I have a feeling by 120,000 miles, engines will start failing in strong numbers. The cost of that engine failure could be total engine replacement ($20k), but the cost of grinding the cranks and rebuilding will be about $5,500 - $6,000. So what are the risks? I think most people mention the risk of something else going wrong, and they most often worry about the loss of oil pressure due to extra bearing clearance. I don't know how much pressure you would lose, but it's hard for me to imagine you'll even lose 2-3 PSI by allowing an extra 0.0015 inch of clearance. Our oil pump is a variable pressure pump with pressure relief valve. So even if you lose 2-3 PSI due to extra bearing clearance, your oil pump will automatically pick up the slack to maintain proper pressure. So to me, that's no risk at all. The other risk is finding a shop to build the engine and resize the crank journals. Many shops can do this. If you don't know a BMW master mechanic, go buddy up with one. If you don't mind pulling the motor yourself or having a local shop do it and shipping it to California, I'll be happy to arrange with some of the shops here in California to do the build for you and ship back the motor. I've managed many engine builds and would be happy to oversee the project. I'm managing three builds right now (BMW + VW), the third being a BMW stroker, and a fourth BMW stroker coming next year. Another option is to send the cranks out here, we'll get them reground and rebalanced and send them back. Top Gear, I'll be in your area next Friday and Saturday. If you wanted to get together and have a chat, I'll be happy to make some time. I'll even bring a few sets of bearings for you to see and get a hands on feel for the issue. |
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09-15-2013, 02:01 AM | #79 |
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Top notch service. This goes to show how helpful people on this forum are. All pessimists and bashers, take a note of this.
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09-15-2013, 05:21 AM | #80 | |
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But in reality are there any real risks in running with original bearings and clearances? I change oil every year at 5k miles, so it's pretty clean. The BMW M engineers know how to build engines and something like getting the clearances wrong is remote after the S54 problems. Tearing down an engine and having the crank ground for no real reason other than a 'possible' problem further up the line is a risk for something that may never happen. If by chance it should happen and a bearing spins with damage to the journal. The crank can then be ground for the thicker, -.25mm bearings. Why pay now when you can pay later? (if it happens) Just my thoughts |
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09-15-2013, 06:06 AM | #81 | |
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09-15-2013, 07:44 AM | #82 |
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The most interesting part is tuners like Manhart racing, ACS and Hamann have not discussed anything about the bearings. If they had then surely there will be aftermarket bearings for our car. Don't know why that's the case. Are they happy with the clearance or are they ignorant of the obvious
I just wish we can get some proper bearings made. C'mon guys, use your industry influence.
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09-15-2013, 09:45 AM | #83 |
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I think I side with Bigjae on all this. Once the car is running and up to temp, the bearings won't wear out, irrespective of Fi or not.
I would put more of the blame onto the fast idle at startup than bearing clearance. Perhaps a fast idle delete map would be more beneficial in the longrun? |
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09-15-2013, 11:32 AM | #84 | |
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You guys have to face it, these engines are too tight and the oil too heavy..... The worse possible combination you can have...... Tight oil clearance and poor lubrication for the entire warm up period. Anyhow, I know you are entitled to your opinion, but we are all speaking based on experience! I work on engines that are a million dollars a pop. When we have bearing issues they are always as a result of either tight clearances or a lubrication issue (starvation or cavitation). Please do yourself a favor and research engine oil viscosity recommendations and clearances as recommended by the bearing manufacturers themselves. This research will show you that BMW is going against the recommendations of the bearing manufacturers that manufacture their bearings! |
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09-15-2013, 11:54 AM | #85 | |
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While its relatively easy to find a shop that knows an LS engine inside and out...not so easy for BMW engines. I'm lucky, I have access to a master tech who used to race in addition to an excellent engine builder AND machine shop. IMO, you need to take the resources you have available to you in making the decision for crank grinding or preventive bearing replacement. But you bring up an interesting point about life expectancy of the engine. I think 100k - 120k on an M engine is normal. In fact, its gotten much better since the days of the S38 and S14 and even the S62. You can see this based on resale values for the E46 M3 which from my observation are heavily penalized for high mileage. You can get a high mileage E46 M3 for about $2k more than a high mileage 330 ZHP. If anyone buys an M car thinking you should get 200k+ miles out of it as the norm...they are mistaken. The only M car that has kind of gotten close to that is the E36 M3 which really didn't have an M engine in it. Based on the clearances and the two reasons stated above why you would have such tight clearances, then my theory is BMW clearly made the decision based on the fact that M cars are much more mainstream nowadays. So if we look at the history of M engines, now we deal with rod bearings on the S54/65/85...or we can look at the past engines (minus the S50/S52) which required more intensive engine maintenance to replace all of the gaskets, seals, valve adjustments, and...potentially...bearings. Also consider BMW's service requirements have been greatly reduced over the years. So nowadays M engines are maintained less and last longer. No they won't last forever but its not a doomsday scenario. If you want a car to drive flawlessly for 100k in most cases, BMW has generally achieved that. 101k miles? Yeah, its going to start to fall apart. If you want something to last forever...buy a Honda. I guess the much less sexier question is BMW M on par with customer expectations? Is the expectation for the engine to last 200k miles?
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09-15-2013, 03:17 PM | #86 | |
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Allow me to share this with you: (1) I love the car and my current plan is to keep it for at least 10 more years. The car is an 08 E90 with 28K "weekend" miles on it at the moment (it's not a DD). So on average I put about 5K "fun" miles/year on it which at this rate will put me at 80K miles in 10 years from now. BTW, I don't track the car but do spirited canyon runs almost every weekend with the car in the high RPM range for tens of minutes at a time. (2) Side note: I have ZERO interest in swapping my awesome E90 for the upcoming M3. The dealer can go to he1l with that new 3-litter 6-cyl motor and their $85K asking price. Sorry, I just had to throw that in there. (3) Last year when the car came out of warranty I started making plans to add a little more power to the motor. Two options: the 4.6L stroker or one of the better centrifugal SC kits. I was a little shocked by the price of the stroker and looked into the SC option which was about half the price. I called up Roman over at ESS and spoke to him about his kits as well as his view on the rod bearing issue. He recommended that I should replace my rod bearings if my car had over 50K miles on it and if I wanted to go with their 625 kit. He said I shouldn't worry about the bearings if I went with their lower-power kits (550 or 585). The rod bearing issue has been bothering me since I started reading threads like this. Knowing I am going to keep the car for a long time I want to do the right thing and add power safely. So for the moment I am staying put until I figure out what my next step is. You are saying that I should be OK with my original bearings until 60K miles as long as I keep the motor stock which isn't far from what Roman told me. At least you two guys are consistent. As for getting together, I certainly appreciate the offer if you happen to be in the SF valley and we can setup a meeting but I am not sure we can't figure this out via PM. I have already seen the high resolution rod bearing pics posted by EAS and some of the others on this forum but I am not sure how this helps me with my long term plans for this car. |
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09-15-2013, 06:33 PM | #87 | |||||
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IMO, technology from 30 years ago: no; technology from today: yes. I think 200k miles on today's technology with an engine that is properly clearanced and properly maintained is what one should expect.
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Notice the blue color on the big end of the connecting rod. Blue == excessive heat == lack of lubrication. No reground crank for this motor, it was a total loss. |
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09-15-2013, 07:07 PM | #88 |
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The oem 5-30 is really the same as the German 0-30, the specs on it are so close that many are under the assumption that all they do is rebrand it to the bmw label.
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