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10-23-2008, 01:31 PM | #23 | |
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Perhaps you can support your fairly interesting claim above, "If you combine a better exit speed (3mph > ZR1) with a tail wind it is possible to match the results in the video." This is not about OPINIONS, it is about reality and proof. As well I am assuming you mean with 530 hp in addition to the exit speed and tail wind? The basic problem I have with this theory is that IF the GT-R exited that fast it would show as being ahead at the early markers such as the overhead banner. IT DOESN'T! This does away with the exit speed part of your argument. Carry on footie, keep up your opinions that can not be changed. This represent the essense of dogmatism which will never support the truth and flexibility of science, my method of choice. |
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10-23-2008, 02:43 PM | #24 |
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We see in C&D the Z06 beat the GT-R from 100-150 by 5 SECONDS!!!! And the altitude is identical.
We see on the ring, the headwind only slows the ZR-1 down to only a little faster than the Z06 is going with Horst driving. The exit speed from Galkenkopf is a little over 100 mph and the bridge comes up at about 145 mph. So there is sufficient time for the ZR-1 to gap the GT-R, yet it's only 1 second ahead while still going faster than a Z06 with no headwind. What gets better is that the ZR-1 seperates another second for the first part of the stretch and then the GT-R catches and passes it in a matter of a couple hundred feet. They end up even by the time they reach the black sign at the end and then the ZR-1 takes Dottinger hohe faster than the GT-R and gains a second back through the turn. To top that off, we'd also have to assume the GT-R conditions were that much greater than the ACR, Z06, and Zonda's as well because all of their respective times add up for the weight/power ratios and gearing. Funny how everyone else acceleration makes sense OTHER than the GT-R. So you can come up with all the excuses in the world but only one thing makes sense and that's the GT-R had much more power than any stock one that's been sold. |
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10-23-2008, 04:11 PM | #25 | |||
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OK, I am sure that the GTR exited the corner a little quicker, call it guts feeling, but the ZR1 catch it and over took it before the banner. Well that is easy to explain, everyone knows the ZR1 can out accelerate a GTR, especially when traction is taken out of the loop as will be the case when both cars are over 100mph, but the thing is the head wind and possible tail wind, this only really takes affect after about 145mph so after this speed the GTR will be playing catch up which it will do. Weight plays less of a role as speed increases but wind resistance has the opposite effect and where did the 15mph head wind come from, was that what the ZR1 team said or was it the figure which happened to work for the sim. And another thing, when was it possible to shift gear in a vette in 0.3s, most of the stuff I have seen makes the gear change look to be very slow compared to normal manuals from the likes of Porsche and BMW. Quote:
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I have personally matched both the GTR and ZR1 laps together and on the straights the ZR1 has a definite advantage but in the corners the GTR pulls yards out of the Vette. Best watch the section between Bergwerk and Klostertal, here is a much better gauge of the performance gap between the two cars, again the GTR comes out of the corner on to this long high speed section in the lead but by the end it's a good 2.5~3 seconds down. The 530hp estimates for all GTR and this one are about right. By the way after this section, in the twistie and more demanding section between Karussell and Galgenkopf the GTR regained the 3 seconds lost to the ZR1 but then re-lost almost half of this between Dottinger Hohe and the finish line. By all means view the videos and match the two cars in each section I have listed, you will find I am right on this. But the most telling section is the high speed one between Bergwerk and Klostertal, the tree coverable would allow for little wind to affect either car and the evidence is clear that the ZR1 is considerably quicker in acceleration than the GTR in this section. I am confident that the GTR is as stock as any other out there based on this. Last edited by footie; 10-23-2008 at 04:45 PM.. |
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10-23-2008, 06:08 PM | #26 | |||||
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No comments about the regressions I see? Funny how this is consistent (barely) with 550 hp. Do you have any idea what 3+ sigma means compared to 1.6 sigma? Well I'll tell you - just for a hands on guy. It is loosely like flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row. |
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10-23-2008, 06:31 PM | #27 | |
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Despite any errors that others might identify (when they have copious time of their own to analyze and deconstruct his hypothesis and conclusions), Swamp obviously understands how to conduct a reasonable empirical analysis given the limited tools that "real-world" situations provide. As the anecdotal observations of other forum members illustrate far better than I can describe, not every member of this forum is gifted with the analytical skills of PencilGeek, Swamp, or Lucid, to name a few. |
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10-23-2008, 07:11 PM | #29 |
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Says the biggest post whore on m3post.com (and perhaps e90post.com). What a hypocrite. At least I have something that represents some work and value, which is in stark contrast to 99% of your "posts".
Last edited by swamp2; 10-23-2008 at 11:18 PM.. Reason: typo |
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10-24-2008, 05:02 AM | #30 | ||
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You want to except that the GTR is putting out 550hp+ because it works closer to your simulations but I am telling you that on a course like the ring things don't always work to a plan. The first section I showed the GTR lose 3 seconds, all high acceleration work required but regain all of this on the twistie sections. How is that difficult to understand. If you need another example of this acceleration difference in action look no farther then near the start, the section between Quiddelbacher and Flugplatz, coming on to this straight the GTR is well ahead but the ZR1 has caught the Nissan on entering the corner. There is examples of this all over the lap. Well, me too and I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on this. Quote:
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10-24-2008, 11:02 AM | #31 |
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To save anyone doing the donkey work I viewed the comparison videos of the ZR1 and the GTR and here is the sections broke down into where the GTR loses time to the ZR1.
Yellow section ZR1 was ahead by 0.7s Orange section ZR1 increased this to 1.3s Plum section ZR1 improved this to 1.9s Dark Orange Section ZR1 loses a whole second in the final turns at Adenauer Forst, dropping to 0.9s Yellow Section #2 ZR1 improves again to 1.7s Green section All high speed, ZR1 improves to 3.6s (most of this improvement is between Bergwerk and Klostertal) Dark Orange section #2 The twistiest section on the track, GTR pulls back 1.5s dropping the gap to 2.1s Light Blue section ZR1 gains another 0.5s to the finish, ending the lap 2.63s ahead. At least now we can all discuss where each car is gaining and losing it's time. |
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10-24-2008, 01:39 PM | #35 | |
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My, point, again, for about the fifth time, is to examine a section that is as straight and as as long as possible to examine a fairly pure power to weight war between the two cars. As well to examine one where exit speeds were close. Keep trying to change the topic, and avoid the central issue. Not a good effort though really. |
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10-24-2008, 01:46 PM | #36 | |
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I have commented on the Nissan Porsche dispute before. First of all, I am excited Nissan built the new GT-R. Every sports car manufacture now has to wake up and smell the roses in a brand new world order. The GT-R is a supercar built by Nissan, of all people, at quarters to the dollar supercar prices. The Germans have been forced to re-evaluate and refocus their engineering efforts just to try and catch up to Nissan. Like almost anything, I am sure there are truths to both of Nissan and Porsche complaints towards one another. However, what most people are missing is the fact that Nissan has forced Porsche back on their heels. Only a year or so ago, Porsche's arrogance would of dictated that they totally ignore what lowly Nissan had to say about anything, especially anything about Porsche's product cachet. Which begs the question, if the good folks in Maranello can hear the pounding at the castle gates. |
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10-24-2008, 02:45 PM | #37 | |||||
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Remember the M3 DCT debate in the M5Board videos. |
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10-24-2008, 04:06 PM | #38 | |||||
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My god, it is always the same, like talking to a brick wall. Do you READ?
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Please, please, please do this. Show me how any given section supports your claim of 10% under rated. Please use some numbers, some analysis, some calculations, something. You just keep using feelings, opinions and instincts. These don't show anything. The problem is that you are not capable of such an analysis, hence eveything is a feeling or opinion. Perhaps such things belong better at a place like http://www.wetv.com/community/index.html . Please stop spouting your drivel until you can show us a single calculation that supports your 10% figure. |
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10-24-2008, 04:49 PM | #39 | ||||||
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[QUOTE=swamp2;3527127]Likewise. This is a matter of analysis not inductive reasoning about the honesty of m5board.com videos. Just becuase your guess was correct and mine wrong bears nothing on this particular analysis. Didn't your parents teach you more manners to rub defeats in the face of your opponents? I very quickly admitted I was wrong there simply both because I show respect and because frankly, it was just a guess/suspicion. This is physics, analysis, simulation, regression and a lengthy argument. Totally different.[?quote] I think everyone here will agree that you for the most part show very little manners to your fellow members, especially if they disagree with you. Quote:
If I start showing calculations all of the time I might end up turning into someone like you............ heaven forbid. |
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10-24-2008, 08:15 PM | #41 | |||||
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If the rated number < actual number I say it is under rated. I think 99% would agree on this word choice. If you wanted to say it that way I would say the car over produces. Either way I know what you mean. Quote:
At this point I think you have spoken your peace, please leave it at that and stop making the thread hopelessly long and fairly pointless to follow. In fact, I have a great idea, post your own bloody thread where you can brilliantly argue that the 7:29 car was 10% under rated. |
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10-25-2008, 05:00 AM | #42 |
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I read this last rant by swampie and near wet myself with laughter.
Talk about throwing your toys out of the pram. Sad to say it but myself, Bruce and others with a bit more practical experience have said that maths can not explain lap times on tracks like the ring but you keep insisting that it can. Even when you see cars which buck the trend you still insist that the GTR can't buck it more, all this evidence showing the GTR out performs everything else, especially when the course is extremely uneven and bumpy like it was on the Isle of Man. I have one for you Dickwad, the ZR1 has 640ps and only reached a top speed on the straight of 176mph, but remember that it got to 174mph very quickly, well here are five recent rivals at the title and their respective top speeds on the very same straight. Pagani Zonda F (640hp) speed 181.6mph Porsche Carrera GT (604hp) speed 183.5mph Maserati (621hp) speed 183.5mph Ferrari Enzo (650hp) speed 189.2mph Koenigsegg CCX (901hp) speed 190mph Now based on your f'ing stupid mathematics the ZR1 should all but match the first four in the list, but it doesn't, even the Porsche which is down almost 40hp is a whopping 7.5mph faster. But wait a minute, the CCX has an extra 250hp and weighs the same as the Ferrari Enzo but reached only 0.8mph more. HOW THE F~CK CAN THIS BE, it was all conducted around the same time frame. Work that one out genius. The big boys here have experience and the other just play with their computer games and dream. |
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10-25-2008, 09:42 AM | #43 |
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I may get frustrated foot but the direct name calling is something I don't do to you. Another nice stoop to an even lower level. Please refrain, it won't help your credibility nor your already poor arguments.
I a not talking about top speed here. That is abundantly clear. I am talking about acceleration from around 100. Diversion should be your middle name. I am not quite sure, even with the head wind, why the ZR1 only made it to 176. However, I am 100% sure that the reason wasn't that the car had 480 or 480+10% hp. |
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10-25-2008, 10:11 AM | #44 | |
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Swamp, I am not trying to divert things here, only showing the error of your argument. According to you more power to weigh equals greater acceleration, whether that is from 100mph, 10mph or 60mph, the fact remains the same. In fact all of these cars will be rounding that turn at about the same speed so it's very relevant to include them into the argument. The fact remains that you can not give an answer as to why the CXX is no quicker than the Enzo to the same point on the track, even though it has an extra 250hp. Will let me enlighten you, that is the upper limit to safety drive that part of the track. No doubt this is why the Viper driver chose to stay in the lower gear and ride the limiter and why the ZR1 reached the 170mph and all but stopped accelerating. In fact Chris Harris took his M3 there last winter and long before the bridge reached 162mph. (Chris's video @ 8:38) http://www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallp...73&Page=9&CT=V You are under the opinion that each of these drivers have their foot to the boards the entire time, silly assumption in my opinion. You just don't get it. You think that everything is answerable in an equation but they all aren't. This argument has gotten well away from the original reason for the thread, that was that Nissan somehow were cheating by giving the GTR more power than quoted. Now for a very long time everyone has agreed with that opinion, myself included but the same is true for all manufacturers, it's a terrible thing but that's life. The argument I am making and will keep making is that this GTR is no different than almost any other, the only possible difference I may think of is the the suspension might be subtly different to a production version, something that is normal when a car is in a development programme but the engine and output figures will be the same as any other. |
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