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      05-11-2014, 08:58 PM   #23
CSBM5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s85e90 View Post
The 6 speed was an afterthought. It's like driving a 6 speed versus a dct m3. There's a noticeable diff to getting an extra gear
Again, talk to actual owners of the car such as Fiftytwoeighty on the M5board.
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      05-11-2014, 09:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Again, talk to actual owners of the car such as Fiftytwoeighty on the M5board.
I don't need to talk to anyone. The 6 speed was never to be made as was only
Made due to demand of a manual in the USA. It's a fact. I like the smg and the 6 speed. I drive a manual. I would also probably buy a 6 speed m5, but 7 speeds is just better. For both the m3 and m5.
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      05-11-2014, 09:29 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSBM5 View Post
Look at the speeds in gear maps overlays of 6MT vs SMG in Cartest as it's a great depiction of what you're trying to describe except it doesn't show the big gaps you think exist.

I've looked at the thrust curves for the 6MT vs SMG. The 6MT is at a noticeable disadvantage. The proof is in the pudding, I suppose, if the acceleration is virtually identical.

Still, I don't think either trans is particularly impressive. When I read that BMW M actually used the SMG because they wanted a more "emotional" driving experience, I had to do a big eye roll. Dual-clutch was possible but they just decided not to do it.
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      05-11-2014, 10:07 PM   #26
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The 7 speed SMG gearing is more aggressive and the shifts are 60ms according to BMW.. But S85E90 is right, the 6 speed is off a normal 5 series, and an after thought which came out in 07 i believe just for north america.. M division didnt want to bring it out at all, but the market out here wanted it so it was born. The SMG III was spefically designed for the S85 engine. I have raced a 6MT and the SMG is faster..
Not for nothing, if anyone has driven a SMGIII latest version, the S6 shifts at WOT are a experience! Its wayy to much fun.

This is my friend racing a modded 6MT, cars are about identically modded: Cam in SMG M5
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      05-12-2014, 12:05 AM   #27
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from what I know and hear from bimmer forums, the V10 motor in E60 M5 has been very unreliable. Plus, it eats up gas like Hummer H2.
I was a bit confused because the 2 cylinder less S65 has been pretty reliable
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      05-12-2014, 07:24 AM   #28
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The "afterthought" aspect of it is overblown. It was not in the initial development plan, that part is true. However, it was already in development with test mules running in late 2004. Larry Koch related his experiences driving the 6MT E60 M5 during the CCA O'fest in August of 2005. The decision had already been made to delay it for the 2007 model year, but that actually didn't have anything to do with the 6MT per se.

The "problem" was wheel hop. Since BMW hadn't (and still hasn't) discovered something GM is now long using (i.e. properly, differently sized half-shafts -- ones with different torsional stiffness) to eliminate wheel hop, BMW was concerned with (poor) drivers powering through wheel hop during launching the 6MT and doing damage to the drivetrain or subframe. On the SMG car, computer controlling the clutch and throttle engagement allowed them to reduce enough wheelhop concerns on most surfaces.

The "solution" they came up with was to not allow DSC to be fully deactivated. Problem solved...no wheelspin allowed = no wheel hop = no expensive warranty claims (clearly the focus). It didn't take 1 minute after the first published test of the 6MT car for that solution to be attacked by the media and many owners and potential owners as the DSC-enabled 6MT car couldn't launch good (you need to get the S85 up in its powerband for sure), and it was hampered on the 1-2 and 2-3 upshifts as DSC would take away throttle to prevent wheelspin and then only slowly give it back. All that equaled significantly slower performance with DSC not being able to be defeated.

So they decided to take the risk and allow full DSC off. This was a running production change during the 2008 model year (2008 ran from Mar07 through July08) which I recall happened late summer, maybe it was 09/2007 and later production date cars had the s/w changed. At the same time, BMW released (with huge pent up customer demand) a s/w update for all E60 M5 6MT cars to all full DSC off.

It turns out the worry over wheel hop issues/warranty claims was a moot point as the car is simply "not that bad" at wheel hop under most traction conditions. I don't think it is any worse than the E39 M5 (or the E90 M3 for that matter).
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      05-12-2014, 11:47 AM   #29
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So regarding the engine, the M3 also has the same s65 engine but V8 right? So does it also have the same problems (vanos issues)? Throttle actuators? What makes the engine more reliable. I'm going to look at some this week hopefully.
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      05-12-2014, 12:22 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyRaz View Post
So regarding the engine, the M3 also has the same s65 engine but V8 right? So does it also have the same problems (vanos issues)? Throttle actuators? What makes the engine more reliable. I'm going to look at some this week hopefully.
No, the V10 is the S85. The M3 S65 does not have the same high pressure VANOS as the S85...BMW learned their lesson. The throttle actuator part number is not the same between the two cars, but some higher mileage S65s do need them replaced.

Overall, the E90 is a far more reliable platform than the E60. My M3 is at 26k miles now, over 3 years since its in service date, and it's never had a warranty claim or issue.
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      05-12-2014, 12:59 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaehshim View Post
from what I know and hear from bimmer forums, the V10 motor in E60 M5 has been very unreliable.
Respectfully ... what you know and hear is wrong.

I've owned two - a 2007 and now a 2010. A post here is correct - it is a unique car with a strong personality which means that some people will love it and some people won't. And it does enjoy as much gasoline as can be possibly sucked from a premium pump. The fact that it becomes an exhilarating ride only at 4200+ rpm and 10 mpg is sobering.

But the engine?? Pretty much indestructible in BMW tradition. It is true that the earliest specimens had a gasket leak issue, but that was quickly and completely remedied within the first model year. And the V10 has had far fewer VANOS issues than any M3 or M5 or Z8 predecessor.

Bottom line with the E60 M5 - get into the driver's seat, feel the active bolsters close their grip around your body, floor the pedal through all of the SMG gears and there is nothing else like it. It's not the best from 0 - 30 mph around town, but there aren't any large saloons that provoke so much fun and such sounds at high speeds.
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      05-12-2014, 02:21 PM   #32
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My first "M experience" was an E60 M5.
A truly shocking car. The acceleration and roar of that V10 at WOT is astounding. The amount of lateral grip in that big saloon was unbelieveable.
Immediately understood what all the fuss over that M badge was
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      05-12-2014, 08:21 PM   #33
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I had lusted over an e60 m5 for years. I still think its best looking BMw ever. ( I know prob the only one). However when I went to by a used one to add to my stable this year it was an utter let down coming from a cat less tuned e92 dct M3. Maybe I built the m5 up to unrealistic opinions but the sound from inside the cabin of the M3 is actually wayyy better as the intake has that huge filter with an opening in hood vs m5 is silent . Cat less M3 exhaust from cabin sounds great but I realized much ofewhat you hear is intake and M3 sounds better.

More than anything the SMG was undrivable after dct. Shifts were so damn slow. Technically maybe fast to shift but over ally process where interruption of power occurs seemed really slow and clumsy. Dct is lightning fast. My tuned cat less M3 felt significantly quicker at all speeds but above 120 mph the v10 dominates. It just didn't live up to my own hype after being spoiled by cat less v8 tuned to 8600 vs 8250 of v10
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      05-13-2014, 06:36 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
But the engine?? Pretty much indestructible in BMW tradition. It is true that the earliest specimens had a gasket leak issue, but that was quickly and completely remedied within the first model year. And the V10 has had far fewer VANOS issues than any M3 or M5 or Z8 predecessor.
This is patently wrong. When the S85 has VANOS issues, the gears get chewed up, metal is circulated through the oil, and the engine is toasted. Hence the reason BMW made a running change in the design. Rod bearings are a serious issue on the S85. Hence the reason BMW made a running change in 2009 to a new rod bearing with more squish clearance and a much greater eccentricity. Throttle actuators die a young death due to a poor initial design (see M5 board and jcolley's thorough failure analysis of the design issue along with his designed fix).

These are just a few of the S85 issues that are very well known. If anyone wants actual data on S85 failures, contact Troy Jeup on the M5board. His company has parted more E60 M5s than anyone else, and they tear down and replace rod bearings all the time, so he has a huge compilation of actual in-use data for the M5 as opposed to opinions.
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      05-13-2014, 11:21 PM   #35
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I've owned both. Both cars are great and the high revving engines are amazing. The m3 obviously feels more agile and the m5 is definitely more of an executive car (it's luxuries are nice). As people have mentioned out of warranty cars can be a scary thought (the m5 being the pricier of the two). The DCT transmission in the m3 is superior and feels much better around town. I would try and get the newest model year possible and you definitely want the upgraded Idrive, which ever car you go with. Drive both, back to back, if possible. Good luck!
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      05-13-2014, 11:36 PM   #36
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Thank you everyone for your input. I definitely know what to check for now. I'm going to look at a 2009 M5, SMG with 30k. Wish me luck!
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      05-14-2014, 11:06 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyRaz View Post
Thank you everyone for your input. I definitely know what to check for now. I'm going to look at a 2009 M5, SMG with 30k. Wish me luck!

Go for it and best wishes.
You'll have a great ride, in every sense of the term.

CSBM5 -
The E60 is not a disaster of a model, as you portray. My post is no more nor less an "opinion" than others. As I agreed the model has some problems - like EVERY M model has and will always have. The M3 rod bearing issue is its analog, for starters.

Besides its incorrect use "patently wrong" undercuts your point, which has some validity as a caution to prospective purchasers. But you and your reference are only seeing ones - many that may be run hard, with unknown maintenance - with problems and extrapolating it into the huge majority that continue to run without such issues. I'm not arguing, just trying to give some necessary counterpoint.

Pace.
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      05-14-2014, 11:19 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post

Go for it and best wishes.
You'll have a great ride, in every sense of the term.

CSBM5 -
The E60 is not a disaster of a model, as you portray. My post is no more nor less an "opinion" than others. As I agreed the model has some problems - like EVERY M model has and will always have. The M3 rod bearing issue is its analog, for starters.

Besides its incorrect use "patently wrong" undercuts your point, which has some validity as a caution to prospective purchasers. But you and your reference are only seeing ones - many that may be run hard, with unknown maintenance - with problems and extrapolating it into the huge majority that continue to run without such issues. I'm not arguing, just trying to give some necessary counterpoint.

Pace.
Point taken; however, my false comment was directed specifically at the VANOS comment. In the S62, VANOS issues are pretty much confined to the solenoids on high mileage cars; there has been nothing like the engine destruction issues the S85 has had with VANOS gears and such lunching motors. If you have an E39 M5 or Z8, VANOS solenoid issues are very rare and generally confined to high mileage cars. The solenoid repair is actually inexpensive and rather easy to do also.

Cheers,
Chuck
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      05-18-2014, 12:27 PM   #39
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Here is the post I was thinking about that goes into great detail about the S85 and provides factual data/updates/changes during the production run which aren't subject to opinion.
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      05-18-2014, 01:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post

Go for it and best wishes.
You'll have a great ride, in every sense of the term.

CSBM5 -
The E60 is not a disaster of a model, as you portray. My post is no more nor less an "opinion" than others. As I agreed the model has some problems - like EVERY M model has and will always have. The M3 rod bearing issue is its analog, for starters.

Besides its incorrect use "patently wrong" undercuts your point, which has some validity as a caution to prospective purchasers. But you and your reference are only seeing ones - many that may be run hard, with unknown maintenance - with problems and extrapolating it into the huge majority that continue to run without such issues. I'm not arguing, just trying to give some necessary counterpoint.

Pace.
Actually the M5 also has the rod bearing issues. Rod bearing issues actually seem to be more common on the M5 than M3 since there are more older model cars with higher mileage. Not to mention that many M5 cars are using the older bearings that have less clearance, while the M3 for half its model run has had the updated 702/703 bearings that have a bit more clearance.
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      05-18-2014, 06:02 PM   #41
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Having owned both, here are my two cents:

E60 M5 pros: The S85 is a beast of an engine. I owned a 2007 6-speed manual and it was docile and calm driving around town, but when revved into the top half of the range, it would scream! It pulled hard above 5000 rpms, and dynoed 409 rwhp on a very conservative DynoDynamics dyno. It was comfortable and huge, plenty on interior space.

E60 M5 cons: My brother and good friend also had E60 M5s, but they both owned SMG cars. They had tons of problems with the drivetrain. The red cog of death was a monthly occurrence for my friend, and couldn't be diagnosed by BMW techs and NA. The Vanos on my brother's car went bad and was in the shop for about a month. It took NA a while to open a PUMA case and they ended up replacing both Vanos units. Fortunately my brother's car was under CPO warranty, which covered the repair, otherwise it would have been $7000+.

Vanos issues are common enough to be worrisome. That is ultimately the reason I sold the car and got the E90 M3. While I do miss the scream of the V10, the better handling and more reliable engine make up for it.

Oh, and the M5 got 13 MPG. Overall. With highway driving.
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      06-11-2014, 09:29 AM   #42
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So I've looked at a lot of cars in the past couple weeks including: C63 AMG, e92 M3, panameras, but.. I after much research and thourght, I finally pulled the trigger on a 2009 M5 in Silverstone II with a kit and eisenmann exhaust! It's honestly a dream come true. It has the newer SMG software and engine hardware and software with low mileage (only 30K!) so I think it'll be okay.. Hopefully for at least another 30k miles before any major tune-ups.

I wanted THANK ALL OF YOU! You guys gave me great information and I can't thank you enough. I will keep checking out bimmerpost but I think I'll be taking my talents to www.M5board.com. haha

THANKS AGAIN MY FELLOW BMW FRIENDS!
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      06-11-2014, 10:21 AM   #43
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Congrats! Enjoy in good health.
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      06-11-2014, 02:51 PM   #44
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Congrats.

While neither car is going to win any fuel efficiency awards, I've heard some owners of the M5 mention what a PITA it is to get 10mpg combined with the tank capacity - gives a range of less than 200 miles.....
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