Need advice: Modded NA do the trick or Supercharge at 6x the Cost?????

[M3Denver]

Superchargers are expensive, get test pipes, Intake, tune and use good gas you should see 40hp at the wheels.

I just did this with dynos and am happy w power. I have always wanted a SC but the intercooler versions are just out of my spare cash range. If you budget it correctly,
1. 585 sc is 11000 after all in
2. You need tires either more often on average so budget 2500 a year max for this
3. You'll need brakes budget 5000k in brake upgrades
That's a lot I dough even when not doing brakes and or tire upgrades

A used supercharger is pretty well priced at stage 1 however stage 2 still pricey ... And better to be safe than sorry with the intercooler option.... Even though results show stage 1 to have minimal heat problems / changes.

One day I'll have one

[Mr.MichaelM3]

Supercharge that b*tch and dont look back!

[Cidle]

Originally Posted by Mr.MichaelM3

Supercharge that b*tch and dont look back!

Hell ya!

[Vic311]

NA FTW...retains the character of the car the way it was meant to be driven. With exhaust and ECU tuning you will be able to grab excellent power from this motor

Use the money for something meaningful....my 2 cents

[Tuner1]

Been there, done that - twice!

Before
2011 E90 M3 6spd. Added Akra EVO (), tune & filter. It was better and faster but after 1500 miles I upgraded to an ESS VT2-625 kit. Sold the car...

Now
2011 E90 M3 DCT. Added Akra EVO, ESS tune & filter. It was better and faster but after 2500 miles I upgraded to an ESS VT2-650 kit. Wicked

Summary: If you are a power junkie an M3 with bolt-ons just doesn't cut it.

[SHADY1]

What part of Texas do you live in?

[M3takesNYC]

I think I am the minority but the FBO m3 is more than enough power for me and for street driving its already at illegal speeds in a blink. I like being able to wind out 1st,2nd and sometimes 3rd and enjoy the sound and experience of everything happening. With a SC it all happens so quickly and your at speed in a fraction of the time which is cool in its own right.

For me its all about keeping it NA too. I always wanted a high revving NA V8 and would not touch this thing with a SC. I will add a new F80 m3 to the stable to get my FI fix but this baby is staying NA. FBO and approx. 400 whp with a 8600 rpm redline makes for the perfect daily driving street machine!

[BuckRodgers]

Had NA mods and now a ESS VT1-550 and wont be going back. Once you get a taste of around 500 whp with this car a NA m3 feels slow The exception would maybe be a 4.6 motor build which is what the m3 should have come with I believe.

[VF-Engineering]

It depends on how you want to go about the process. Some owners want to go all out right from the dealership, and some like to enjoy each and every mod and the slight difference it makes.

Luckily, you have the choice of both. If you'd like to start with the N/A tune, we offer you $500 credit towards any of our superchargers when you're ready. Then once you get to that stage it's all up to you if you want to start with the VF540 or go straight to VF620/650. Either way, you won't have to worry about swapping parts out and extra labor/costs because we provide the same manifold in the VF540 for all the stages of S/C we offer.

giggs was in the same situation as you and he decided to go ahead with our Hex Flash software first (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=743094) and eventually went S/C with the VF540 (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=763483)

So you can go from


(with a $500 credit) to...


Checkout these links:
Hex Flash software
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...ight=Hex+Flash

$7295 for VF540!
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=812543

[Black Gold]

Well, if you weren't impressed by the sc stage 1 cars....why would you be satisfied with bolt ons?

[ussoldierforhire]

Originally Posted by Tuner1

Been there, done that - twice!

Before
2011 E90 M3 6spd. Added Akra EVO (), tune & filter. It was better and faster but after 1500 miles I upgraded to an ESS VT2-625 kit. Sold the car...

Now
2011 E90 M3 DCT. Added Akra EVO, ESS tune & filter. It was better and faster but after 2500 miles I upgraded to an ESS VT2-650 kit. Wicked

Summary: If you are a power junkie an M3 with bolt-ons just doesn't cut it.

Word

[LarThaL]

If you just want to change the character of the car a little and are happy with the overall power then go ahead and do NA mods. Do this more for subjective feel however, not for real power. By this I am referring to slightly better throttle response and different better sound. If you really want performance altering power then supercharge for sure. Remember, however, that if you SC, in order to keep the car's performance balanced, you will need wider wheels and tires and a brake system with better stopping power. The costs escalate. You may want to add a gauge cluster, a better oil cooler, etc, etc.

Ask yourself this: If you had to stay with the overall power level/speed capability of this car in stock form, would you be okay with it? If yes, then NA. If no, then SC.

[M3takesNYC]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

If you just want to change the character of the car a little and are happy with the overall power then go ahead and do NA mods. Do this more for subjective feel however, not for real power. By this I am referring to slightly better throttle response and different better sound. If you really want performance altering power then supercharge for sure. Remember, however, that if you SC, in order to keep the car's performance balanced, you will need wider wheels and tires and a brake system with better stopping power. The costs escalate. You may want to add a gauge cluster, a better oil cooler, etc, etc.

Ask yourself this: If you had to stay with the overall power level/speed capability of this car in stock form, would you be okay with it? If yes, then NA. If no, then SC.

I wouldn't call 40 whp or 55 BHP not "real power" Catless, filter and tune commonly gives you 30-40 whp and that is not at all nothing

[ussoldierforhire]

Originally Posted by M3takesNYC

I wouldn't call 40 whp or 55 BHP not "real power" Catless, filter and tune commonly gives you 30-40 whp and that is not at all nothing

This is also true, but is it "enough" for what he's looking for. I blew almost a grand on the BPM tune (which is fantastic) but still not enough for my wants. 1 month later and I purchased a supercharger and the tune does me no good. it is my opinion that he should save his money for a used S/C kit if he's really looking for more power. Why pay the piper twice?

[M3takesNYC]

Originally Posted by ussoldierforhire

This is also true, but is it "enough" for what he's looking for. I blew almost a grand on the BPM tune (which is fantastic) but still not enough for my wants. 1 month later and I purchased a supercharger and the tune does me no good. it is my opinion that he should save his money for a used S/C kit if he's really looking for more power. Why pay the piper twice?

Keep in mind for a lot of people their m3 is only one car in the stable. Many people like keeping the m3 NA, including myself. I will be adding FI cars and likely the next m3 so everyone who makes it seem the only way to go is supercharger I don't agree with.

And whether 40whp is enough is up to the OP. The poster above me said "bolt ons did not make real hp" Was simply saying 40 whp is pretty real hp

[LarThaL]

Originally Posted by M3takesNYC

I wouldn't call 40 whp or 55 BHP not "real power" Catless, filter and tune commonly gives you 30-40 whp and that is not at all nothing

I agree that catless/tune will give 25-30 whp. That is not 55hp. However, how much will a 25-30hp gain on top of 414hp make in your actual performance?

Lets look at this.

Firstly, even a stock M3 is traction limited in its low speed performance. Even if your car has 1000hp, it won't get off the line any faster. The first place to spend your money for actual increased performance is to increase the traction of the car so you can get the existing power to the ground better. So, you already need to invest in bigger wheels and wider tires.

Okay...so you argue that you are not into the whole drag strip thing, and that this is a "track car". OK, so in that case, let's see actual track times of otherwise equal cars with the only difference being basic NA mods. ( I say basic, because you are already talking about $4-5k for a good full exhaust and tune...about half the cost of a supercharger) I am willing to bet that all other things being equal, a car with just 25 more hp won't get around a track any faster in a statistically consistent manner. Your extra 25hp may get you a car length or two for all those times you get to an abandoned airstrip and can run your straight up to 150mph.

I reassert my point. By all means, do the NA mods, but do them for the change in subjective feel. Don't look for any meaningful actual performance gain.

And I am not in the least discounting the whole subjective feel thing. In the end, the joy of driving comes from a variety of sensory inputs and speed capability is only one of those.

Just don't kid yourself about what you are actually accomplishing. Believe me, I have done it all in 30 years of playing with cars....carburators, intakes, headers, exhausts, superchargers, turbochargers, standard and custom flashes, bigger and better this and that, etc. etc, etc. If you want clear cut power that you can really feel and use, get a supercharger, do the proper associated mods and be done with it.

[KROD]

Thanks guys for the good input. Just to be clear I'm not doubting or stating that the 40whp gained from NA mods and a tune is insignificant. You definitely feel the difference (I tuned my previous e92 m3). Coming from a GTR I miss the "throw back" power when in boost. Coming back to an M3 was definitely a different feel and I agree with most that say the M3 stock is slow. Its great for the track and handling and as a DD but just not impressive when it comes to power (there obviously is good reason for BMW moving to FI on their next generations). One thing for sure is that most of you who have SC'ed are happy and won't look back, and a good number of those who do NA mods first end up going SC'ed anyways. Yes its more costly but you have to pay to play.

I'm already running 265/295 front/rear with the GTS wheels. I don't plan on getting a BBK as I don't intend to track much if ever. I am looking at two used kits both well priced and stage 2, so in the end I'll be paying considerably less than a new kit. I thought I could easily resell the kit on the forum if I ever upgraded or had to sell, but with the abundance of kits for sale right now (and surprisingly they don't seem to be selling even at their ridiculous low prices) really bothers me. I have made the decision for FI, its now just a matter of which kit I go with. I will post pics once the car is complete.

[Chriskm3]

I sstill have an understanding issue that you can help me with.
Fbo:New akra evolution is 6000. Pulley 500. Intake, 100, tune 1000, total : $7600
sc: new vf540 sc kit: $7250 on sale now. (used stage 2 $8000 even more power)
FBO produces 40 whp
Vf540 produces over 140 whp.
Not to mention car retains stock feel and sound , unlike FBO

[M3takesNYC]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

I agree that catless/tune will give 25-30 whp. That is not 55hp. However, how much will a 25-30hp gain on top of 414hp make in your actual performance?

Lets look at this.

Firstly, even a stock M3 is traction limited in its low speed performance. Even if your car has 1000hp, it won't get off the line any faster. The first place to spend your money for actual increased performance is to increase the traction of the car so you can get the existing power to the ground better. So, you already need to invest in bigger wheels and wider tires.

Okay...so you argue that you are not into the whole drag strip thing, and that this is a "track car". OK, so in that case, let's see actual track times of otherwise equal cars with the only difference being basic NA mods. ( I say basic, because you are already talking about $4-5k for a good full exhaust and tune...about half the cost of a supercharger) I am willing to bet that all other things being equal, a car with just 25 more hp won't get around a track any faster in a statistically consistent manner. Your extra 25hp may get you a car length or two for all those times you get to an abandoned airstrip and can run your straight up to 150mph.

I reassert my point. By all means, do the NA mods, but do them for the change in subjective feel. Don't look for any meaningful actual performance gain.

And I am not in the least discounting the whole subjective feel thing. In the end, the joy of driving comes from a variety of sensory inputs and speed capability is only one of those.

Just don't kid yourself about what you are actually accomplishing. Believe me, I have done it all in 30 years of playing with cars....carburators, intakes, headers, exhausts, superchargers, turbochargers, standard and custom flashes, bigger and better this and that, etc. etc, etc. If you want clear cut power that you can really feel and use, get a supercharger, do the proper associated mods and be done with it.

Again you make zero sense. Take a look at youtube on all the videos where a tuned/catless m3 runs a stock m3 and the tuned/catless car pulls away big time.

40hp is a lot of extra performance when it is present throughout the entire curve. Car feels a ton different with catless and a tune.

Again you don't have to take my word. Go look at the dyno database. 45-50hp is right on for the FBO and that is wheel hp so probably 60 plus BHP.

If you want to believe that is nothing that is fine. I am not saying it is "better' than a SC but rather for someone who wants to keep the car NA because I have other cars to get a FI, its a great option to really let the S65 unleash its full potential.

But to each his own

[M3NSCH]

The decision for FI is the right one. Although the M3 is capable, it's hard to call it a "fast" car when stock, or even modified NA - yes, 40hp *is* insignificant IMO (flame suit on).

I know, I know, I've heard it before: "it's build for the track" - "what are you doing pushing the pedal past 75% on the street anyways?".

But the truth is, even slightly modified 135's, Evo's, STI's & Genesi (?) run a stock M3. AMGs will eat it up. At least with the supercharger you are in the hunt. Once you get to the track, watch out, now you are able to set your sights on the P and F cars.

As for drivability - I think this is the BEST thing about SCing the M3. It remains *stock*. Aside from a grumble from the exhaust and whine/psssh from the supercharger, the car drives like it came from the factory floor. This is truly amazing. Daily driving is no problem at all, as their is little to no sacrifice on the luxury aspect of the car.

The *real* challenge supercharged M3s face is in the battle for traction. Even with 295s, 1st gear is useless and 2nd gear won't be much better. 3rd gear is even sketchy at times. This is why I always chuckle at the arguments over 20/30 hp in this kit vs that kit. Regardless of what power it's making, it's damn near impossible to get it down. That said, I will always opt for more power - VF620, ESS VT625, AA Stage2, Gintani Stage2 are all on the same level IMO.

Anyhow, the good news is - buying a kit used IS going to save to a ton of money. Even better, as more 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand owners come into the M3 they will be more willing to modifiy their cars and the demand for SCs will stay constant. We're currently in a 'transition' period right now with the M3 as it moves from 1st/2nd owners and lease returns to the "next generation". Thus the reason sooo many aftermarket parts are for sale. I'm sure many are unloading in preparation for the F30, others simply moving on. Not to sounds like a used car salesman, but "now is the time to buy".


Good Luck!

[Chriskm3]

Originally Posted by M3NSCH

The decision for FI is the right one. Although the M3 is capable, it's hard to call it a "fast" car when stock, or even modified NA - yes, 40hp *is* insignificant IMO (flame suit on).

I know, I know, I've heard it before: "it's build for the track" - "what are you doing pushing the pedal past 75% on the street anyways?".

But the truth is, even slightly modified 135's, Evo's, STI's & Genesi (?) run a stock M3. AMGs will eat it up. At least with the supercharger you are in the hunt. Once you get to the track, watch out, now you are able to set your sights on the P and F cars.

As for drivability - I think this is the BEST thing about SCing the M3. It remains *stock*. Aside from a grumble from the exhaust and whine/psssh from the supercharger, the car drives like it came from the factory floor. This is truly amazing. Daily driving is no problem at all, as their is little to no sacrifice on the luxury aspect of the car.

The *real* challenge supercharged M3s face is in the battle for traction. Even with 295s, 1st gear is useless and 2nd gear won't be much better. 3rd gear is even sketchy at times. This is why I always chuckle at the arguments over 20/30 hp in this kit vs that kit. Regardless of what power it's making, it's damn near impossible to get it down. That said, I will always opt for more power.

Anyhow, the good news is - buying a kit used IS going to save to a ton of money. Even better, as more 2nd, 3rd, 4th hand owners come into the M3 they will be more willing to modifiy their cars and the demand for SCs will stay constant. We're currently in a 'transition' period right now with the M3 as it moves from 1st/2nd owners and lease returns to the "next generation". Thus the reason sooo many aftermarket parts are for sale. I'm sure many are unloading in preparation for the F30, others simply moving on. Not to sounds like a used car salesman, but "now is the time to buy".


Good Luck!

Here is what non supercharged driver do not understand.
Let's take my kit for an example.
My car outs down 508 whp at high rpm. Peak hp is around 7000-redline range.
What non sc drivers should understand that I have gained over 100 ft of torque through out the rpm range. This is usable power. In every gear at any rpm range when power is called for it delivers. No exceptions. The car becomes a different beast when changing lanes, simple acceleration and on highway merging. At any point when the maximum power is required you can redline this beast and feel it throw you back in the seat.
Additionally people mention traction issues in first and second. Correct me if I'm wrong but prior to supercharging when driven hard my back end would loose traction either way. So natural response when accelerating the car from a dead stop is using less power!! One can feather the pedal to achieve 100 percent traction in all gears and use most of your power. Flooring the pedal in each gear isn't really the way to drive anyways unless you are at the track. Under this level of driving your tires will need replacement sooner than later. So therefore one may invest in better wider tires when time calls for a replacement. Either way this is my opinion.

[Alex07M3]

I think some people seems to forget that it's not just 40hp(and by the way 40hp is a lot) on top that you get from a catless-tune set-up, you also get a more aggressive power delivery wich makes up for a lot in the feel of the power. Same reason why people with just a tune(only 10-15hp) still can feel a diffenrence!

@ LarThal: There's no doupt a catless-tune set-up will get your M3 around the track faster(40hp-30ft/tq is not neglectable and specially the way this power is delivered), probably close to where a stg1 s/c with stock cats would be(on a track) since the major power gain on the s/c set-ups is really up top of the RPM range, where you don't pass the majority of your time on a track!

Just my opinion!