Why NO BMW's at 2012 Le mans this year?

[Kayani_1]

I am not understanding why BMW needs to take a break from ALMS. When they have been kicking butt in it for last couple of years. The M3's have ran with Corvette's, Ferraris, Porsches, and Aston and out done them.

I think they should continue the effort with Rahal L. racing team.

As far as 2010 Le man goes they won it and got 3rd position in 2011. I do not consider that bad results. So if Corvettes GT2 cars went and competed. I think BMW M3 GT2 cars should have done the same. Because they are pretty competitive with those Corvettes. In fact they might have done better then the Corvette cars that suffered real bad luck.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

First,

If BMW takes a break from ALMS it would not be the first time... there is always the Jag or Grand Am/ Continental/ Rolex (whatever it is called).

[mapezzul]

Originally Posted by Kayani_1

I am not understand why BMW needs to take a break from ALMS. When they have been kicking butt in it for last couple of years. The M3's have ran with Corvette's, Ferraris, Porsches, and Aston and out done them.

I think they should continue the effort with Rahal L. racing team.

As far as 2010 Le man goes they won it and got 3rd position in 2011. I do not consider that bad results. So if Corvettes GT2 cars went and competed. I think BMW M3 GT2 cars should have done the same. Because they are pretty competitive with those Corvettes. In fact they might have done better then the Corvette cars that suffered real bad luck.

This is it for the M3- there is no more E92 and BMW does not race obsolete products since racing is just a form of marketing. Why on earth would they spend money to race something they no longer make?? If BMW races in ALMS it will not be BMW Motorsport backed. If RLL wants to field their own team and get their own sponsors etc. that is up to them but BMW is not going to invest any capital in a car that has been sent to pasture. The next generation car will not be here for several years and unless something miraculous happens with the Z4 GT3 there will be no BMW racing in the US. I met with Dr. Jens on Saturday- he said they have no indication at this time that the Z4 GT3 will be homologated for any race series in the US unless it is redesigned and if that is the case, it makes no business sense to do such a thing as the car is racing well around the world for privateer teams and sales have been excellent, with order books full in current form.

As for Corvette- GM uses it as a loss leader for marketing so anything they do is solely to sell other cars. BMW has no loss leaders from a marketing standpoint- also Corvette Racing has sponsors with DEEP pockets that just want to see their name on a car on the grid- BMW sponsors are not the same animal and some have also taken money from the GT cars and put it into DTM.

There were 140,000 fans this weekend in Nuremberg for the DTM race- millions more watched on TV. One race has more specatators than the entire ALMS season does. And in the US sadly- racing does not sell cars; Mercedes doesn't even race in the US, neither does Lexus and Audi only visits the states for a few races. The precedent has been established that racing in the US outside Nascar is limited to niche individuals and those individuals are only a small percentage of all car buyers (I am in that niche but don't base car purchases on race results like some).

As for Le Mans it is a huge race, lots of fans but is sponsoring a car there worth the same money as a Super Bowl ad especially if you do not think you can win? That's how marketing works... To racing fans it is something different but just like your favorite sports teams the product put out has to make a profit in the end. More people watch the Super Bowl and more are likely to take interest in a product if the ad is a good one- Dig up the Le Mans numbers in the US and you will be surprised at how small the audience is, its not worth the money outside for the art car...
Le Mans in Europe gets big numbers but DTM overall is a better investment and there is no need to have to grease the "off the record" French authorities to be able to enter and field a team.

Once again though- look at BMWNA and how they have now begun to package cars for more luxury, they are softer and comfortable does that equal racing?

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by mapezzul

First, Rahal never competed in Le Mans even with Dr. T at the helm so why is it Jens issue? The ILMC is an entire different race series that happens to have some ALMS races and the 24hr LM race included- the reason for not entering besides the cost is that they had a very successful year last year and still could not win bc they are only two cars competing with fleets of Porsches and Ferraris- not an even balance and little chance of success. They didn't need a press release because they never said they were racing it, last year they announced they would compete for 2011.

Correct, RLL has never been to Le Mans, but I bet they would like a shot at it, and in my view the team deserves it. It's not a Jens issue I know that he goes to some of the ALMS races and I saw him at Mid-Ohio last year. If I remember correctly last year the #56 was pretty competitive until they had an issue that cost them a few laps and still managed third. Team Schnitzer has had some bad luck there in the past few years, but the results haven't been because the car was not competitive. Not to mention Rahal has won the 12 hours of Sebring the past two years against that same fleet of Ferraris and Porsches.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

It is very cost prohibitive to ship people and equipment overseas to race at Le Mans- competing in Le Mans (just the entry fees and "greasing") costs more than the entire ALMS season without even getting into shipping stuff.

The ALMS program is financed by BMWNA not BMW AG- the entire M3 GT2/GT program started as a "customer car" program with BMWNA as the BMW Motorsport customer- no different than Schubertt. BMW is getting out of the "works" team business and developing customer products- this is what Ferrari does and Porsche does for the most part- sure they have works drivers and supply engineers but they are not operating the day to day- (RLL does this in the US).

I understand the cost of racing in the 24 hours is a lot but I guess I'm biased since I'd like to see the team be given a shot. I know that if BMWNA is paying the bills it isn't worth the price to send the team out of the country to race, but that is where I feel BMW AG should have stepped in to help pay to send the team.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

BMW AG stopped racing the M3 LAST year because even with the success the car had, it had run its course as "GT" cars are dated, cost prohibitive and slower (in many cases) than GT3 cars. They performed an "update" to the Z4 GT3 (invested significant resources), built a DTM program from the ground up (6 cars at over 2.5 million each in development- new haulers and equipment for the 6 teams) and are continuing to build customer cars. Is it a posturing statement to the ACO that BMW is not racing in GTE- sure, but they are making their point as are the other brands- MB wants the SLS in, Audi the R8, Astin etc.

This is the fourth year for the car so I get it, that is a long time for a GT car and I know they have been trying to get the Z4 into the ALMS for 2013 but since that has the M3 V8 in it and there is no road version of that, they are having issues with it, plus even if they raced that in ALMS they can't go to Le Mans with the Z4.

The whole GTE vs. GT3 discussion is one that I think will be going on for the next few years because you can't deny the amount of GT3 based cars that are being produced right now. But I'm not sure what the ACO/FIA will do about it, if anything when it comes to GT3 and Le Mans/WEC. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

BMW does not have the money of VAG nor the engine contract in F1 like Mercedes (they only one 60% of the team and that is financed in part by engine sales). Audi and MB are also already invested in DTM- actually they are not saving money than in the past.

BMW AG also decreased it's investment in racing after F1 by investing in the future- they have almost $200 million invested in joint ventures- one of which is in carbon fiber and is the one other brands now are trying to catch up to and will shape the next generation cars significantly.

People tend to think racing brings innovation- it does in some areas like P1, but in GT racing no innovation is gained, the street car contributes more to the race car than vice versa.

Manufacturers in F1 are saying that now and are working on ways to curb spending because costs are too high and winning is solely on trickery and spending money, P1 is similar.

If Bernie is convicted of anything, Mercedes will be pulling out of F1 in all capacity as there is a statute in their organization that they cannot and will not have any dealings with criminals or organizations that are corrupt (statute was written post WWII)- it is also a clause in all the contracts they have parties sign. Up until recently Audi did not even race in the US, and MB still doesn't.

I agree with everything you say, but the fact is that DTM outside of Germany and especially Europe has very little interest/fanbase. I think it is great that they are back in the DTM, but I'd hate to see the rest of their motorsports program get cut because if it. Maybe 2012 is a rare year because of all the startup costs for the DTM season.

Originally Posted by mapezzul

If BMW takes a break from ALMS it would not be the first time... there is always the Jag or Grand Am/ Continental/ Rolex (whatever it is called).

No Comment.

[Silver E90]

Here's a tweet that I saw on Saturday before the Lime Rock race:

Midweek Motorsport ?@specutainment

Bmw will use Z4 across endurance racing including ACO sanctioned events according to Motorsport division. More on Mwm Wednesday 8pm uk.

I haven't heard anything else about this, but I'm very interested in how this is going to work.

[Silver E90]

Now there is an article up on speedtv.com talking about it.
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...to-z4-in-2013/

[tres]

WANTED to go, but BMW couldn't "support" the effort THATS BECAUSE THEYRE WORKING ON THE NEW SPECIAL EDITION M3 (FROZEN BROWN)

Originally Posted by Silver E90

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I am very disappointment that BMW Motorsport didn't support Rahal in going to Le Mans. He had the invites, the competitive car and the drivers to compete for the win and he WANTED to go, but BMW couldn't "support" the effort. I followed BMW into F1 and watched Vettel in his first race at Indy, and have been a big follower of the ALMS program, and baffled by this.

Audi is running FOUR LMP1s at Le Mans AND is in DTM (Plus the R8 GT3)
Mercedes has a Formula 1 team AND is in the DTM (Plus the SLS GT3)

Is BMW's motorsport program really that small? To me that's kinda sad when they are supposed to be the sportier "Ultimate Driving Machine" of the three German brands.

I just think it makes them look bad. and for everything that RLL has done for the brand in North America they couldn't support them for the biggest race of the year?

Unreal.

On a side note I've tried to watch DTM and even with all the BMW Motorsport PR it is nowhere as good as GT racing. Period. It's F1 with fenders. But that's my opinion.

[S54dan]

It's a little disappointing, but I'm sure the FIA will allow the Z4 GT3 to become a GTE car replacing the M3. They bent the rules by allowing the Viper to run a 8 liter even though only 5.5 liters is allowed. When you make one exception, another will be made. Now it comes down to cost. Also, you all are forgetting that BMW is just starting the DTM. The start-up costs are always the highest. I can understand why they didn't go to Le Mans, but it's still saddening especially when Audi flaunts 4 P1 cars, 2 of which have F1 technology.

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by Dan@UnitedBMW

It's a little disappointing, but I'm sure the FIA will allow the Z4 GT3 to become a GTE car replacing the M3. They bent the rules by allowing the Viper to run a 8 liter even though only 5.5 liters is allowed. When you make one exception, another will be made. Now it comes down to cost. Also, you all are forgetting that BMW is just starting the DTM. The start-up costs are always the highest. I can understand why they didn't go to Le Mans, but it's still saddening especially when Audi flaunts 4 P1 cars, 2 of which have F1 technology.

Yeah I agree with you about the engine issues. I don't think that is a big issue considering what we saw with the Viper. I think the bigger issue is the aero on the car, that rear wing on the GT3 spec is huge and I don't think that would work in GTE so they will have to rework some of that. That is a big investment to redesign and test the aero to make it work in GTE.


I also understand the huge start up costs that the had for bringing three teams to the DTM, but is that the reason for no WEC involvement or sending RLL to Le Mans? Or is their main focus going to continue to be on DTM? Let's see what next year brings, see if they bring the Z4 to ACO racing in the ALMS and WEC. Maybe they get Team Schubert to run in the WEC next year with a Z4. If they do return to endurance racing full force then I'll be a happy camper.


If BMW continues to race in the ALMS with RLL, it makes it easier to deal with the lack of support for this year. I hope that in the next year or two Rahal does get a shot at it.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by Dan@UnitedBMW

It's a little disappointing, but I'm sure the FIA will allow the Z4 GT3 to become a GTE car replacing the M3. They bent the rules by allowing the Viper to run a 8 liter even though only 5.5 liters is allowed. When you make one exception, another will be made. Now it comes down to cost. Also, you all are forgetting that BMW is just starting the DTM. The start-up costs are always the highest. I can understand why they didn't go to Le Mans, but it's still saddening especially when Audi flaunts 4 P1 cars, 2 of which have F1 technology.

The Z4 will not be approved for Le Mans by ACO or IMSA. The strict homologation rules simply won't allow it. At least not with the V8 in the car.

The Viper is a different story, for it to race and still follow homologation rules they had to let them run the 8.0L. They will just get an air restrictor like most other cars, theirs will just be much more restrictive.

Originally Posted by Silver E90

If BMW continues to race in the ALMS with RLL, it makes it easier to deal with the lack of support for this year. I hope that in the next year or two Rahal does get a shot at it.

It is apparent Rahal is already making the transitions back to a full Indycar effort. He has been ramping back up his Indycar team for sometime now. This was the first sign I saw that BMW was going to pull the plug on the E92.

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

The Z4 will not be approved for Le Mans by ACO or IMSA. The strict homologation rules simply won't allow it. At least not with the V8 in the car.

Originally Posted by M3_WC

It is apparent Rahal is already making the transitions back to a full Indycar effort. He has been ramping back up his Indycar team for sometime now. This was the first sign I saw that BMW was going to pull the plug on the E92.

If there isn't any chance for that car to get approved by the ACO why is Jens even talking to multiple people about the possibility of the Z4 being approved and running in the ALMS and possible WEC next year?

I don't know anything about the engine issue but it seems to me that if Rahal was done with ALMS after this year and the Z4 will not be approved for ACO racing, both of which you suggest, why are they even talking about it?

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by Silver E90

If there isn't any chance for that car to get approved by the ACO why is Jens even talking to multiple people about the possibility of the Z4 being approved and running in the ALMS and possible WEC next year?

I don't know anything about the engine issue but it seems to me that if Rahal was done with ALMS after this year and the Z4 will not be approved for ACO racing, both of which you suggest, why are they even talking about it?

The homologation rules will not be changed for BMW. In fact BMW are reason why the current homologation rules exist in ALMS. ACO/IMSA would have to rewrite the rules book. Unless BMW decides to build/sell a Z4 with the S65, it will not be coming to Le Mans.

There was some talk of the Z4 GT3 coming to Grand-Am, but I haven't read anything lately about it.

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

The homologation rules will not be changed for BMW. In fact BMW are reason why the current homologation rules exist in ALMS. ACO/IMSA would have to rewrite the rules book. Unless BMW decides to build/sell a Z4 with the S65, it will not be coming to Le Mans.

There was some talk of the Z4 GT3 coming to Grand-Am, but I haven't read anything lately about it.

ALMS: BMW Poised For Switch To Z4 In 2013
Written by: John Dagys

Despite having achieved considerable success with its current-generation M3 GT, BMW is looking to replace the two-time American Le Mans Series championship-winning car with a new model for 2013.

BMW Motorsport director Jens Marquardt, in a SPEED.com exclusive interview, confirmed the Bavarian manufacturer is in talks with the ACO and IMSA to run a GT3-based BMW Z4 in the highly competitive GT category.

“This year it has been very much down to the team and the drivers extracting 100, and sometimes [more than] 100 percent, out of what was there,” Marquardt said. “Whatever resources we’d put into the M3, there is not that much left in that car.

“I think this is really what we have to be honest with ourselves about. Looking at the potential the Z4 has, I think it’s a logical evolution that could be the solution for us. We just have to make it work.”

As one of the more successful cars in the GT3 platform, Marquardt said they are pursuing full GTE homologation for the Z4, which would require some modifications in order to meet the FIA and ACO’s standards.

“The basis has to be the GT3,” Marquardt said of the proposed Z4 GTE car. “We just have to see how much in what area has to be modified.

“Between GT3, where people say [there are no real] regulations, and what ACO and IMSA have, which is a clear set of regulations, there are some differences. And we need to figure out how we can bring those together.”

One of the current holdups is with the Z4’s engine. While the GT3-spec BMW uses a 4.4-liter V8 powerplant, the production car is offered with a variety of four and six-cylinder units. And unlike GT3 regulations, ACO rules mandate that GTE cars must have the same engine configuration as its road-going counterpart.

Exceptions, however, have been made in the past. One of the most recently publicized examples has been the new SRT Viper GTS-R, which received an ACO waiver to run a trimmed down 8.0-liter V10, which is outside of the category’s 5.5-liter displacement limit.

“Between us and the governing bodies, we just have to see that it’s an affordable solution,” Marquardt said. “We can’t do it at any price, that’s for sure. The current situation doesn’t allow us to do a new car from scratch.”

While BMW Motorsport’s focus in Europe will remain on DTM, Marquardt admitted the advantages of having a new GTE-spec car in its arsenal, should a decision be made to re-enter the various other Le Mans-branded championships or provide customer cars in the years to come.

“The good thing with the ACO in that respect is that once you have that car homologated, you can run it in the ALMS. And you can, if you want to, and that doesn’t mean anything right now, also enter Le Mans. You can also run WEC and the Asian series,” he said.

“The platform that is available to you is wide spread. For sure not for 2013, but for the future, you have a lot of options available. And honestly speaking, that was also the reason why we said DTM is so interesting. It’s good to know there are options available.”

No detailed time frame has been given on the homologation process, but Marquardt said to expect a definitive decision to be made before October, when BMW typically announces its motorsport program for the following year.

If the green light is given for the Z4, it’s expected two-time and defending ALMS GT champions, BMW Team RLL, would continue fielding the manufacturers’ ALMS entries, although not officially confirmed.

Guess we will have to wait and see what they say in October

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by Silver E90

Guess we will have to wait and see what they say in October

Using the analogy of the Viper V10 just doesn't make sense to me. In order for the Viper to compete and still run the V10 as it does on the street, ACO/IMSA lifted the displacement limit. They didn't alter the homolagtion rules set for the cars to follow what is sold at dealerships. The E46 M3 GTR is the whole reason those rules exist. To be honest it would be compete BS if ACO lets them circumvent the homologation rules and run the Z4 with 4.4l V8. While everyone else on the grid is running a version of what they sell in the showrooms. That would open up a can of worms they don't want to mess with. If BMW wants to sell an all turbo lineup, then man up and prepare the next gen turbo M3 for Le Mans racing. Don't beg to run a car you don't sell. No one is stopping them from running the E92 for one more season, it is their choice to end the program early.

[Silver E90]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

Using the analogy of the Viper V10 just doesn't make sense to me. In order for the Viper to compete and still run the V10 as it does on the street, ACO/IMSA lifted the displacement limit. They didn't alter the homolagtion rules set for the cars to follow what is sold at dealerships. The E46 M3 GTR is the whole reason those rules exist. To be honest it would be compete BS if ACO lets them circumvent the homologation rules and run the Z4 with 4.4l V8. While everyone else on the grid is running a version of what they sell in the showrooms. That would open up a can of worms they don't want to mess with. If BMW wants to sell an all turbo lineup, then man up and prepare the next gen turbo M3 for Le Mans racing. Don't beg to run a car you don't sell. No one is stopping them from running the E92 for one more season, it is their choice to end the program early.

While I want to see BMW on the ALMS grid next year and go back to Le Mans more then anybody, I agree with everything you just said.

If you think that smaller turbocharged engines are the way forward then prove it out on the track! If all the M cars are going to have turbos then they should be racing those turbocharged engines and prove the reliability of them. Isn't that the reason for the M on the back of the car to represent what BMW has learned out on the track?

[Kayani_1]

I think it would be great idea to run inline 6 twin turbo in Z4 GT3. Time to prove how good BMW turbos can be.........going back to f1 era