Jalopnik: "The Death Of BMW’s M Brand"

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by US///M3

Yeah because when BMW offers old school performance...light weight Recaro seats, rear bench delete,wider wheels and tires, coilovers,a 4.4L NA engine they want $140,000 for it.

It's not like a choice between a Boss 302ls or GT500 at similar prices or chosing between an E36 M3 or a E36 M3 LTW. Btw i know a guy who purchased an E36 M3 LTW new,there were no trunk money you've talked about.i dont know why you keep repeating the ltw was a commercial faillure.
He had to travell all the way to Cleveland OH to get one at msrp.

The M3 GTS is well over $140k, geez i wonder why there arent so many takers?

This is the problem in a nutshell. When the base M3 already sells for $70K+ with common options, BMW hasn't left much room to build something harder and sportier without going over $100K. I know it's hard to accept, but it's just not worth BMW's time to build lots of hardcore variants right now when they need to focus on keeping 4 or 5 other "mainstream" M models current. So they split the difference by offering their hardcore car at a price point that will only appeal to the most extreme buyers and that will cover BMW's costs of doing so. As I mentioned above, even a $90K M3 variant is likely to hit stiff resistance given its true sports car competitors (and the fact that it starts like as a $40K car).

[Vegas_Sirk]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

simple example:

Make the "Lime Rock" limited edition with the following:
- The australian S65 version of the engine (+20hp, etc)
- Make it slightly lighter (add performance seats, additional weight)
- add the M5 like brakes
- add Euro MDM and other similar features

and then charge me what you are charging this current "Lime rock limited edition"

Sounds great, but I think like the other poster above said for 20hp you still will get a lot of gripes bout the extra money (I know, I know its better then what they are giving you now with the LR Edition)

I see something like this being very possible with the Turbocharged M3/M4, as a tune can add in 50+hp, all while keeping costs lower.

[e92_m3]

IMHO, I just see the "Diluting of the ///M brand" as a positive thing for BMW to keep up with sales against other auto manufacturers. I bet if BMW started to lose money, the ///M brand is the first one to go. BMW has decided diluting the ///M brand to make more money, which will lead to better sales, and more ///M's for us in the future.

They don't want following the same fate as saab, alfa romeo and citroen in which all have fallen in the same pit which led to their downfall.

We all know that the Lime Rock edition M3 is all for marketing. All cosmetic mods. NO PERFORMANCE modification at all. You could actually build one just like it (Not exactly the same, but VERY close to it) if you already own a 6-speed e92 M3 with the competition package. Since you have the carbon roof as standard equipment, all you have to do is get the following:
--> Orange wrap (Just like forum member Archiebabes)
--> BMW performance spoiler
--> BMW performance exhaust
--> BMW performance steering wheel
--> BMW CF chin splitters
--> BMW performance seats

There you have it. ALL COSMETIC mods to produce a pretty much replica of the lame Lime Rock edition M3.

[Vegas_Sirk]

Originally Posted by Peteypab2133

This is one of the exact reasons I think he wrote this. Just think about how silly this sounds.

These are $35-50,000 used cars and $65-82,000 new. Not $150,000-500,000.

He is absolutely right though, I love the M3 for its origins, not for its present lifestyle. The 1M was a down right monster in comparison to the M3 for the price.

Bmw knows by now that most of the people who own these cars buy them as a status symbol. They are heavy, slow and the body is now dated and finally coming with a new style... They have absolutely been beating a dead horse with all these stupid frozen colors, and orange, and now lime rock edition. They are never faster than the previous model as stated truth.


I passed on a 2011 M3. Bored of car shows full of 20" wheels and duck tails trunk lids. I wanted a platform that would be open for growth, and I had a hard time accepting $15,000+ in mods to run 11's.

I agree with you on the 1M, but lack of availability killed it, and the ridiculous prices they are selling for now is absurd.

As for your last part I can see why you didnt go with the M3 as your goal is to run 11s, in that case the GT500 is by far a better car for you. Im guessing your a past Evo owner based on your sig (I was one as well) and like your self use to be all about speed, but the M3 for me has been the most complete all around car i have ever owned. By complete I mean, its amazing to drive, its powerful (within reason), amazing handeling, comfortable, easy to deal with for daily use, prestigious, service department is great (loaner cars are awesome), ect, ect. Its got one of the best if not best all around owner experiences. I think thats what people forget, when bitching about just performance. What other brand can offer this experience? MB? too soft in the driving experience (make fast AMG cars, but the handeling isnt there and the cars feel soft), Audi? While the closest to BMW IMO, the AWD systems of the S and RS cars still make handeling not as exciting, Ford? cant touch the car in comfort, or service, Nissan? same as Ford, ect, ect.

[Darth One]

some of the responses in this thread are hilariously emotional

I agree with the author in general, but he is being pretty harsh. two things are true - this lime rock M3 and the fake sounds in the M5 are an utter embarrassment to the brand.

but in reality, BMW has to toe the line...it's built crazy track editions before but they don't sell too well in the US. but if they make the cars more luxurious, sales success!

[DiscoZ]

Originally Posted by ChrisK

I do think BMW is getting a little generous with the M Badges.

Agree and with most of the article, some of it is harsh, but he is entitled to his opinion. I love some of the fanboi responses, they exemplify what the author is saying vs. belittling him. I have watched with disgust, the ever steady dilution of the ///M brand. Soon you will be able to get a "M-Line" 3 series that will look 95% just like a M3, a’ la Audi. The M5 with the sound through the speakers is a travesty as far as I am concerned - same for the X5M and X6M.

I really wish I had not sold my Z4MC - last pure car made by ///Marketing. Yes, the 1 Series M or whatever it is called is not bad either... at matching a 5 year older (and worse tired - although it could have been cup tires as BMW is fond of doing) Z4MC on the 'ring.

[ALPINE6SPD]

Originally Posted by Smg Ftw

You're right. But they made it available to no one. It would be a different story if they made a worldwide variant of the GTS priced it at 90k and made it as available as the GT3/GT3rs is.

90K how could they do that? that a pipe dream Its a 120k car that would almost NEVER sell in the US unless they made like 500 at most. Plus the cost of smog testing, crash testing, changing the seats etc for US reg would make the car a lot more than that. Would you buy an M3 GTS for 140k-150k plus?

[///Machine]

I kind of like the fact that the hp output from a 2008 M3 is the same as a 2013 M3 (even some limited editions). I perceive that as a consistent brand. One that would not add 10hp per year or per "edition" only to piss off everyone who bought last year's model.
It makes the 2008 model that much more valuable, and subsequently the 09-13 models as well. I think this helps resale/residual value of the brand as a whole.

[Whostheboss]

Originally Posted by Ghetto2315

You think corporate ever reads stuff like this?

+100,000,000,000,000

i've been saying this!! corporate really needs to see how the customers feel. Oh well it's business, so whatever yields them $$$ they'll do.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by NJA///M3

I kind of like the fact that the hp output from a 2008 M3 is the same as a 2013 M3 (even some limited editions). I perceive that as a consistent brand. One that would not add 10hp per year or per "edition" only to piss off everyone who bought last year's model.
It makes the 2008 model that much more valuable, and subsequently the 09-13 models as well. I think this helps resale/residual value of the brand as a whole.

With BMW going turbo I doubt that the hp will stay the same over the model years.

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by simianspeedster

Sounds like a fun configuration, but I'm guessing your last line was tongue in cheek because you probably know BMW would charge at least another $10K to add these bits. So then the question is whether BMW would realistically sell many $80K-90K M3s with "only" another 20HP. Sales volume would surely be very low, so BMW would have to charge a stiff premium (at least $10K, maybe more) to make the effort worthwhile.

And remember, this variant could only potentially exist because BMW has already sunk 90% of the R&D costs into the existing base M3, so it goes back to the question about how to produce niche M cars at scale without the "tent pole" models.

the point is, for that $10k premium, if they had included the "upgraded" aussie S65, the CRT seats, and Euro MDM programming (etc), it would've been a great success, and worthy of the "special edition" nomenclature.

[DASHOCKER]

this article is laughable.. it reminds me of the articles about the death of the bmw v12 that had folks on competing brand forums foaming @ the mouth over the prospect lol..

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by Daaaadadundun

What a load of crap and a dramaqueen. Here's the problem most people have these days. We romanticise things. Sure the M3 E30 was a great car, as a matter of fact it is one of my favorite BMW's, but this car wouldn't have hit the streets if the DTM rules at that time didn't stipulated that the racecar should be sold to the public. But times change, hell even the DTM changed, nowadays there aren't any championships with homologation rules. So you can dream about taking a standard BMW coupe tweak it (because that's what hapened with the E30) and compete against the Ferrari's and Porsche's of this world but that is you living in La-La land (no, not L.A.). If you want to compete with midengined and rearengined racers you'll have to adept the whole car as they did.
And they're doing a pretty amazing job in ALMS and DTM. They also didn't do a bad job in F1 it's a pitty but sensible retirement of F1 because business before pleasure. But the point is if you wanted BMW to make streetversions of the ALMS and DTM cars you will need to tone it down, make sure that it meets regulations, make it comfortable enough for the general public and after all that you need to keep costs down. So what will you end up with? Precisely the M3 as we know now.

So for as the roadcars. Sure the M3 isn't a homologation model but is it a bad or shitty car? No. Last time I checked it was still the standard for it's class. Hell it even competes with the Porsche 911's of this world. How good the M3 E30 was, it never challenged the 911 at that time. So there's progress.
Are the M5, M6 or 1M bad cars? No. They're fanastic cars. And that's the point as it ever was of M. They make the standard cars that are great even better. Remember the original M5?

So, is BMW M dead? No, not by a long shot, it's just BMW living in reality and not in la-la land.

you registered to post this gem?

[stefan]

Article is a bit too dramatic but it's accurate. M brand, in the eyes of a true enthusiast, is lost. They will still make plenty of money though.

[ddigangi]

This was a disappointing article and I was on the same page as many of the posts in this thread but I have to admit...coming from Bill makes me take it more seriously. He isn't just some schmuck writing about pretty cars.

[ozinaldo]

Originally Posted by DiscoZ

Agree and with most of the article, some of it is harsh, but he is entitled to his opinion. I love some of the fanboi responses, they exemplify what the author is saying vs. belittling him. I have watched with disgust, the ever steady dilution of the ///M brand. Soon you will be able to get a "M-Line" 3 series that will look 95% just like a M3, a’ la Audi. The M5 with the sound through the speakers is a travesty as far as I am concerned - same for the X5M and X6M.

I really wish I had not sold my Z4MC - last pure car made by ///Marketing. Yes, the 1 Series M or whatever it is called is not bad either... at matching a 5 year older (and worse tired - although it could have been cup tires as BMW is fond of doing) Z4MC on the 'ring.

Off the topic, but got to say this: The Z4MC is a fantastic car and there is really nothing wrong in matching its performance. Having said that, there is also no match to talk about either cause the 1M is quicker than the Z4MC in every single performance department and on every single track including the Ring. I am yet to see any numbers of a stock Z4MC equal or better than the 1M. Not too much difference but there is still some. Just for the record and no intention to take the discussion somewhere unnecessary.

[ssabripo]

Originally Posted by ddigangi

This was a disappointing article and I was on the same page as many of the posts in this thread but I have to admit...coming from Bill makes me take it more seriously. He isn't just some schmuck writing about pretty cars.

as you can tell by the majority of the negative feedback to the article in this thread (emphasis on "majority"), most are pretty ignorant on who Bill is, what he does, and where is Point of View comes from.

perfect example: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=111

[M3PO]

LOL, you've got to be kidding. So let me get this straight, you're not impressed by anything making less than 100 HP per liter it appears. So that rules out all the NA AMGs, all the Corvettes (ZR1 included), the Boss 302, the Viper, some Lambos and Feraris, and basically everything else under $200K besides the Honda S2000. Not to mention, have you priced out a GT3(RS) in comparison to an M3? Go try to buy a 4.0L Porsche and let me know how that turns out.

The article was terrible. Full of sniveling and whining. Contradictions and hypocrisy. And I don't give a shit about M or it's heritage, I bough an M3 because it was the best car in the segment. Period.

Originally Posted by TopSpeedInc

I think the article was spot on.

BMW should have taken a note from Porsche. When the end of the 997 GT3 was at hand what did porsche do? Build the most badass limited edition 4liter 6 cylider GT3 ever produced. The GT3 4.0 is a work of art both from an aesthetics and engineering standpoint.

BMW dropped the ball hard on this one, and its sad when BMW builds a 4 liter v8 that dyno's 345rwhp.

Porsches standard GT3 3.8 liter 6 cylinder dyno's 420rwhp and last Hooraa GT3 4.0 makes 455rwhp bone stock.

Talk about a slap in BMW's face. Porsche's 4 liter, 6 cylinder, Normally aspirated is making Supercharged M3 power.

So BMW building a limited run of "TRACK" cars with nothing more then paint and some stickons is a slap in the face.

BMW \\\ step it up.

[H_RV_0335]

The M-badge is being diluted... what's the big deal?

Serioulsy if you think that most M buyers buy their car for the track you are totally wrong! Most of them suit up on Monday get in their car and get stuck in the traffic to go to work... That's reality!

I mean if you are a real purist and enthusiast of BMW mechanic you shouldn't care about if your car as an M badge on it or not and you should care less about the M badge being diluted...

If you need the M badge to feel right about your M3 you are the real poser here!

Now stop whining get on track and enjoy the pleasure of driving your BMW!

[simianspeedster]

Originally Posted by ssabripo

the point is, for that $10k premium, if they had included the "upgraded" aussie S65, the CRT seats, and Euro MDM programming (etc), it would've been a great success, and worthy of the "special edition" nomenclature.

I respect your desire for this specific car, but I don't think it would have been a great success by BMW's new sales standards. Realistically, it would probably sell in the hundreds in the US, especially since the E9X body is about to be replaced.

And I think the specificity of your desired configuration underscores the problem: for the extra $10k-20K that this car would cost, you want something different than the next guy, and the next guy after that. Why not just the tuners fill the void as they are today?

BMW would have to build and sell a bunch of different M-branded micro-models to achieve the same level of profitability they're recognizing today by doing what they're doing. They're just not playing in the that ballpark right now as Porsche is with it's many 911 variants. Maybe BMW needs to consider an uber M sub-brand for cars like this (like someone mentioned earlier, Audi's RS line) but that's also a form of dilution because then many people will say "uber M is the REAL M."

In the end, it's a whole lot easier for BMW to continue to make $100K M luxury/sports sedans than delve into the niche business. They're taking the easier route and chasing the easier money. I don't love it either, but it's clearly working for them financially for now. Long term it may cause some brand damage, but it's easy to forget that brands also adapt. Because of where we come from and which cars we grew up with, M means something different to many of us than what it will mean to someone our age 20 years from now. BMW is probably counting on that by evolving the meaning of the label...and they're counting the money all the way.

[Karazy]

Quite a few points I'd agree with... Piped in motor sounds and badgeing cars "special or limited edition" without any handling or power gains only hurts the BMW brand, and the M division.

I for one will cross my fingers that when the new M3(M4) arrives it is what the M division had been about in the past. Keep the weight down, power up, and PLEASE hold the cheese-wizz labels and sounds tracks.
I'll make my own sound effects at the track thank you.

[Imola.ZHP]

Someone needs their meds...

Alibiet interesting points, most of which I was not aware of, it is what it is. Is the M5/M6 supposed to be a stripped down bare-bones race-car? No one that can afford one would buy one if it was...