M Went in the Ditch Today..

[CantDrv55]

Originally Posted by J08M3

I believe downshifting and tapping the gas on a sharp turn caused the accident. Not turning DSC off.

Everyone is going on about DSC and ignoring the fact he downshifted in a tight turn.

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by J08M3

I believe downshifting and tapping the gas on a sharp turn caused the accident. Not turning DSC off.

+1 for the cause, but the result was because DSC was off. With DSC on pushing the gas on the sharp turn would have cut the engine power and probably prevented the slide.

[lucid]

Guys, whatever your opinion of this accident might be please do not use offensive language against the OP. You might think he was at fault for various reasons, but please voice your opinion in a cordial manner. (No, I am not responding to a complaint made by the OP or anything, just voicing my perspective).

[J08M3]

Originally Posted by CantDrv55

Everyone is going on about DSC and ignoring the fact he downshifted in a tight turn.

exactly. not only downshifted, but stepped on the gas too.

[JCtx]

Originally Posted by gnatty8

Actually been to the school twice, once for a client outing with a bank and another time to the M school. Anyway, live and learn.

Glad you brought that up buddy. Some people almost imply you just learned how to drive on your M3; geez.

Folks, Gnatty had the guts to post this thread (probably knowing he was going to get flamed) for a reason. He knows he screwed up, and want the rest of us to avoid the same mistake. He's obviously an experienced driver, meaning it can happen to the best of us if not careful.

Having said the above, I'm not sure Gnatty would have avoided the accident even with DSC; we'll never know. So the other lesson to learn here is DSC is NOT a magical cure for every possible accident, as mentioned. There's NOTHING DSC can do if you downshift to a lower gear on a slippery road and lose your rear end, since it can't disengage the clutch. Have a good one.

[sparkyg]

MDM?

[hlmiii]

gnatty8 -
I am truly sorry for you to have that experience. I see black when I barely curb the wheels once a year ... I can only imagine your situation. Good luck.

Even though some of the posts here seem unforgiving I don't think they are meant that way. The only reason all of us have not been through your type of experience once or twice is that we've only just missed it by a couple of milliseconds of better luck than you had ...

I do feel that this is an appropriate time for this thought:

People shouldn't ... rely on DSC to keep them out of trouble.

Because what happens is that

DSC teaches people to be lazy and never have to learn how to drive their car.

's

If anyone hasn't already done so - GOT TO SCHOOL!!!
There is no substitute.

Best wishes for the repair.

[V8convert]

Originally Posted by jbeene

I'm a little surprised at all the crap being heaped on this guy for what was an unfortunate incident.

DSC would have probably saved his a$$ but if snap oversteer is snap oversteer. Once the car is away from you its gone. DSC might have kept it off the tree but I'd hazard a guess he'd have still been in the ditch.

DSC can't defy the law's of physics. If you are on a greasy road, going fast enough and inputs are abrupt enough something bad is going to happen. DSC might have minimised the damage but it sounds like he was the victim of some severely bad luck. Come on, decreasing radius corner shadowed by trees, still wet while the road before and after is dry, crap signage.

I've been to several HP driving schools (BMW and other), autocrossed for a few seasons and do the occasional track day. One of the first things they do is teach you the limitations of DSC systems.

The M3 is a driver's car, he was enjoying his car on an otherwise nice day and was going 35 miles an hour.

Bad luck, no need to vilify the guy.

Absolutley.

The OP scenario could happen to any of us. Can any of you say you've never been surprised while driving at 35 mph?

[Pitkis]

Originally Posted by gnatty8

Yeah, DSC on would have been better, but it was dry where I was and hadn't realized it had rained in this part of town at all.. Lesson learned though, DSC good, unfamiliar roads, bad.. Not defending myself at all, but I did notice the turn was not marked with one of those yellow signs, and Sheriff's deputy says they work many many wrecks on that stretch of road..

Nice to hear no serious damage was occured and you reported here, just from learning point of view. Someone other will learn now and perhaps 1-2-3...accidents are now prevented?!?

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by elp_jc

Folks, Gnatty had the guts to post this thread (probably knowing he was going to get flamed) for a reason. He knows he screwed up, and want the rest of us to avoid the same mistake. He's obviously an experienced driver, meaning it can happen to the best of us if not careful.

Exactly. And since that turn seems to claim it's fair share of victims lets give some benefit of the doubt as it sounds like little more than a trap disguised as a road. We all make mistakes driving--he just happened to make them in a situation that could not be recovered from.

The OP was totally honest in describing what happened including the downshift into the turn, throttle, and DSC off. Clearly the guy isn't a novice driver and I'm pretty sure he doesn't need 100 people telling how he f'd up. He knows that already! He knows he made mistakes and knows what the causes were (hence the specifics about what happened and chain of events).

He's doing us all a favor so we can benefit from his misfortune and not end up in a ditch or worse ourselves. It took courage to post what happened especially in light of the fact the guy knows what, how, and why he messed up.

How about a few "that sucks dude" or "that sucks, but thanks for reminding me of a, b, c so I don't make the same mistake" rather than what seems like flame-o-rama? Even the best drivers make mistakes now and then and if anyone thinks they're different they're just lying to themselves.

Gnatty, sorry to hear about what happened and thanks for having the balls to post the whole truth and precise chain of events about it. I hope your car is back in shape soon (and you too).

[MrHarris]

I totaled my last M3 by turning off DSC completely. This car is tail happy that's for sure!

[dcstep]

Depending on whether he was oversteering or understeering, downshifting and "tapping" the gas may or may not have been a good idea. I don't think we know enough.

At Oak Tree corner at VIR in a DCT M3, I liked to make the shift at the final turn-in, leading to that big, long straight, to get help rotating the rear, rather than plowing the fronts, and then roll into the throttle to settle the rear when everything got pointed in the right direction. The car has a natural tendancy to understeer in stock setup, so a downshift might be a way to break it into an easily controlled oversteer.

The DCT downshifts are incredibly smooth and really don't upset the car. The throttle roll-on must be smooth and we can't know what the OP meant by "tapping" the throttle.

BTW, I found no need to turn off DSC at VIR and only saw the light flicker a few times over two days and only when I'd royally screwed up the line or something in the rain. The tail did plenty of waggin' with DSC on. Oh yeah, and I saw people spinning or plowing into tire barriers with DSC on, so it WILL NOT overcome the laws of physics.

The OP is on the right track and probably got a little ahead of his skills. A couple of track days is only scratching the surface of what there is to learn. I'd suggest the 2-day M-school, followed by the Advanced M-School. The instruction blows away the average BMW CCA HPDE, IMHO. These guys are all national champion level and full time instructors.

Everybody now, all together, keep the friggin DSC on, except on closed courses and then only when your track insurance is paid up. Yee haw...

BTW, when decellerating from 130+ down to 40 in the rain and the ABS comes on, you've got to modulate the brakes to regain control. Just staying on the ABS will get you way off line and maybe into the barrier. I thrilled myself more than once at the end of long straights in the rain. Donnie Isley explained that the APS is actually skid-rotate-skid-rotate, etc. and not as good as the driver backing out and reseeking the threshold. (Don't tell your wife, just let her slam 'em on, if she thinks she needs them).

Dave

[gnatty8]

Appreciate the positive responses.. I only started this thread to share a rotten experience, and underline how something like this can happen, even to an experienced driver who has been driving BMWs for 10 years, and in far worse conditions! I doubt I'll drive DSC off on unfamiliar roads anymore, or when I am not positive about road conditions, but again, this was the last thing I expected to happen, since I was not pushing the car at all.. Just emphasize you don't need to be doing 80+ for an accident to happen..

[mkoesel]

I admire you for having thick skin and putting yourself out there gnatty8. Sorry to hear about your mishap.

DSC can be an annoyance, but it can also save your ass. When in unfamiliar territory, it might be a good idea to drive with it on and only shut it off if after it cuts in and ruins your fun a couple times. You can always go back and do the same run again. Not saying I always adhere to that rule, but it might be a good one to live by.

[von_zoom]

Perhaps I am getting old, but why turn DSC off? If one is driving on the street with the kinds of speed in turns which require DSC to function, then it beggs the question, is one driving safely? If DSC becomes active, then the M3 is questioning it. I hate to mention it, but what if a car with a Mother and baby were negoiating the same turn in the opposit direction? All in all, away from good.
vz

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

Perhaps I am getting old, but why turn DSC off? If one is driving on the street with the kinds of speed in turns which require DSC to function, then it beggs the question, is one driving safely?

Strictly speaking, the answer to the last question is "no". That is why you take it to a backroad with no traffic. Like driving at illegally-high speeds, forcing the car to lose traction can be fun. You just don't do it in a populous area or (especially) a crowded city street. You take it to an isolated area. And, as the OP's situation also reminds us, you do it on a dry road that you are familiar with.

If DSC becomes active, then the M3 is questioning it. I hate to mention it, but what if a car with a Mother and baby were negoiating the same turn in the opposit direction? All in all, away from good.
vz

Well in that case they'd be in the other lane. I'd never take the car into an oncoming lane, even on a backroad. I'd also never slide the rear out around a turn where oncoming traffic was not clearly visible for at least a few hundered feet up the road.

Your point is still a good one though. Bottom line, be careful.

[Beck]

Originally Posted by quackbury

Final point: I sure don't want to be riding my bike along the side of the road when one of you hero drivers runs out of talent with your DSC/MDM turned off. If you want to prove Darwin right and take yourself out of the gene pool, that's fine with me. Just don't do it on the public roads where you can take an innocent bystander or two with you. Save your heroics for the track.

I think that is the best sense I have read. Despite being a fun sponge, the DSC is there to protect the innocent as well as the ignorant.

I hope your shop takes good care of you.

[gnatty8]

Originally Posted by Beck

I think that is the best sense I have read. Despite being a fun sponge, the DSC is there to protect the innocent as well as the ignorant.

I hope your shop takes good care of you.

I should probably make it clear that this was not a busy urban street or suburban road.. the fact that it took the county boys so long to get there was because this was not a busy road at all.. Also the heavy tree cover was because there were almost no houses on this road..

[Robert]

You got on the gas too early I hypothesize. Despite the amount of grip these BMWs have it's surprisingly easy to induce oversteer with the right foot. DSC saved me once to far, and I am leaving it on until I learn the limits on my lowly 135i which sadly is too high for public street.

[von_zoom]

Originally Posted by gnatty8

I should probably make it clear that this was not a busy urban street or suburban road.. ..... no houses on this road..

Are we to believe then that the only time you have your DSC off is when your are on that lonely county road? Nuf said. I hope that you get your car repaired.
vz

[gnatty8]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

Are we to believe then that the only time you have your DSC off is when your are on that lonely county road? Nuf said. I hope that you get your car repaired.
vz

I really could care less what you believe to be quite honest.

As a rule though, I tend to leave DSC on when I am driving in urban/suburban areas..

[MTROIS]

First of all, let me make it clear that I am NOT trying to pick on the OP or to question his driving abilities.

I just want to emphasize (again) two things:

* this is a lessons learned for all of us, and we should be grateful for the OP to have shared it with us. For example, I would have like to read what happened to the totaled car listed on eBay! (but that is another story!)

* on the other hand I must admit that I somewhat disagree with the following idea that has been posted: number of years driving BMWs is IMO not correlated to the fact that someone is a good driver, let alone a M3 "master"!! Some people, although they have been driving for 20 years, are still bad drivers. Also, how many of us have been driving 400+HP cars for that long?!? I am guessing only very few. And yes, a few M-schools or PDE events are helpful, but I do not think that this would allow a normal person to acquire true "reflexes" and good driving skills.

Just my 2 cents.