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03-21-2009, 09:27 PM | #45 |
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To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing in his contract that excludes HPDE coverage. I am pretty sure they denied his claim because they argued that HPDE driving took place on a race course (without making any claims about him actually racing), but I will ask him. He has studied the contract in detail, so there is nothing that he has missed as far as I know.
The thing is that HPDE events are in a gray zone, and the insurance company will try to leverage that as much as it can. I am not aware of any regular car insurance policy that explicitly states coverage for HPDE events. Please let me know if you know of such a company as I will switch over promptly. A contract cannot possibly cover every single driving scenario, so there will always be gray zones. What about jumping over buses for instance (not as an exhibition but as something you do on your own on your private property)? If someone decides to do something with their car that is unusually risky and is not referenced in one way or another in the contract, what does that mean? I understand your example of driving at 120 mph on a public road also falls into that category and would be covered, but that is somehow different from jumping over buses.
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03-22-2009, 02:26 AM | #46 | |
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03-22-2009, 09:03 AM | #47 | |
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If your friend lives in Mass there is no gray area, DEs are not covered. |
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03-22-2009, 09:23 AM | #48 | |
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03-22-2009, 04:23 PM | #49 |
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It might be a little off the topic but i just got done 15k miles service and they didn't say anything about the mods that I have, including the stickers lol. Also stupid enough, kinda asked the SA about tracking the car but he said as long as u pay for the brakes and stay off FI tuning, I'm good to go. I guess it all depends on the dealers in some point, strongly in my personal opinion.
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03-22-2009, 04:28 PM | #50 | |
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03-22-2009, 06:12 PM | #51 |
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Being in the insurance industry I can tell you that almost always any "grey" area of a policy is interepeted in the policyholders favor in the court of law. Also anything your agent tells you can be taken as word. Not that they're right but they are consisdered to be a expert and the court will hold them accountable (they have insurance called errors and omissions to cover them for exactly such a mistake and which is used to pay your claim).
All this being said you'd have to sue your company and agent. Go through all of the hassels involved with that. Probably eaiser to buy the track day insurance unless you're a lawyer. Insurance company discalimer: Each claim is different and is handled on its own merits. |
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03-23-2009, 01:02 PM | #52 | |
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I'l bet that with a straight face, you can't make an argument that a reasonable person who heard about all the logic an planning involved (assuming a stock car) would not consider jumping a bus to fall under the intentional damage clause of the policy? I don't think there is a "gray" area in this example. From my research insurance companies routinely pay for accidents while driving drunk and even less routinely while smoking crack. Most normal people probably consider this type of driving activity also a "gray" zone but the claims seem to be routinely paid without question because they do not fit under an exclusion clause in the contract. I would think that most HPDE claims without clear language disallowing those claims are also routinely paid out. Maybe your friend got unlucky twice. But, if there isn't a clear exclusion in the policy then those that go to court will ultimately get paid out too. Even your friend must feel that way or he wouldn't have risked his legal costs (and maybe the insurance companies too) taking the case to court? I agree there will be some "pain" getting your money, but I do not plan on totaling my car (I'm not jumping a bus with it ). The odds are your going to drive in 10, 20, 30 or more events before it happens. Sure you could go out on the first event and total your car and your insurer could be a dick and for $400 you could save 10-15 hours of your time. That is a legitimate risk and then HPDE insurance would be a good deal. But at the more realistic HPDE accident rates (for a total loss) you will pay $7,000 ($11,000, $15,000 or more) to an HPDE insurer as opposed to your $1,000 deductible on your regular insurance. I've been to court and it's time consuming and sometimes real boring. But if the contract is "gray" as you say then the insurer will wind up covering your legal costs and damages and I can put up with a degree of hassle to save/make that sort of money. Think of it this way, if you totaled your car would you pay someone $6,000 to $15,000 to save 5-10 talking to a lawyer and then 4-8 hours in court? I'm not trying to say anyone with HPDE insurance is an idiot. HPDE insurance is a viable option that for a cost and with the right sort of policy wording has the potential to save you some time in recovering your money in the rare case that you total your car. With some policy wording it provides the only opportunity to recover your money in the rare case that you total your car. I just don't think it's necessarily right for everyone because some policies already cover the events (whether the insurance companies admit it or not) and it's very expensive. Does anyone know of anyone who's filed a claim under HPDE insurance and then been unable to get HPDE insurance any more? How about two claims? I'm curious if they will cut someone off at some point? |
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03-23-2009, 01:50 PM | #53 |
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I'm concerned about timed solo events, like autocross. I prefer autocross to track days partly because it's so easy on the cars, with very little strain to the drive train and brakes vs. either drag racing or track days. The problem is that they are timed and there's a clear winner in each class.
BMWCCA's track insurance does not cover autocross events, but I'm not too worried about body damage due to the low speed nature of autocross and the fact that there's no passing and the cars don't get close to each other or anything that would likely damage them, other than a possible pylon smear. Do dealers exclude warranty coverage for autocrossers simply because they participate in timed events? That would seem strange to me to not cover autocrossed cars but allow tracked cars. Tracking, IME, is much harder on brakes, transmission and engine because you spend much more time at speed and the braking is much harder and longer than in autocross. I'm going to VIR in May, but I'll drive BMW's cars. Dave
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03-23-2009, 05:37 PM | #54 |
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[Does anyone know of anyone who's filed a claim under HPDE insurance and then been unable to get HPDE insurance any more? How about two claims? I'm curious if they will cut someone off at some point?[/QUOTE]
The Lockton web site does say one claim and you are no longer insurable with them. |
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03-23-2009, 09:54 PM | #55 | ||||
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03-23-2009, 10:06 PM | #56 | |
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03-23-2009, 10:33 PM | #57 | |
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03-24-2009, 01:05 PM | #58 | |
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Seriously, I would like to know how your friends case turns out. I found this insurer. From what I read the rates are 3% of the value of the car with a 2% deductible. I think that's an annual rate. That's more than Lockton unless you do 4-5 events/year. http://www.wsibinsurance.com/ This thread has some interesting information from Ryan Staub (of Lockton-...) http://my350z.com/forum/autocross-ro...surance-7.html As an aside, in this thread Ryan mentions he had his car covered in a track accident by his primary insurer. He doesn't mention a lawsuit but there could have been one. He was still reading policies from the same insurer so I imagine he wasn't dropped. Here's another thread I found on this topic: http://www.trackpedia.com/forums/sho...?t=2031&page=5 Another insurer (lower premiums than Lockton): http://ontrackinsurance.com/ This is the thread that mentions On Track Insurance http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-sr...iper-days.html From these threads it's clear that if you are relying on your regular policy that you need to keep reading your policy because they are changing the wording. Good luck everyone and thanks to the OP. I'm glad I put this much thought into this even if I'm not changing anything. |
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