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      08-04-2010, 02:11 AM   #1
choda
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Thumbs down won ebay auction. Fred Haas Toyota not honoring

Hi folks. i found Dooma350's giant thread by googling "Ebay car auction not honored".

i'd like to share with you a similar experience i am going through right now.
i bid on a no reserve auction for a used 2007 FJ Cruiser a couple hours before auction end on aug 2nd. here's the link to my winning bid

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...t_28292wt_1165

truth be told, i wasn't expecting to win and i didn't even bother watching the end of auction. i was actually out in the garage working on my bike when the auction ended. i remembered to come inside and check thinking i still had a couple minutes, but the auction had already ended. unbelievablly, though, my bid was the final and highest bid at $20,200. now, that may seem like alot for a 2007 gas gusseling FJ with over 60k miles, but this truck is "built". just look at the pics and you'll understand. it's quite the polar opposite of an M3, and if you're all wondering what a truck guy is doing on an M3 forum (besides venting) my regular daily driver is a 2009 135i. it's no M3, but it's sure fun, and i'm super envious of you late model M3 owners out there.

anyhow, back to the story. i was super elated to find out i won the auction however, i checked my emails to find two emails from the ebay "specialist" at Fred Haas Toyota in Houston with bad news.

the first email which was recieved roughly an hour before end of auction (but not opened by me until after auction as i was not in front of my laptop) solicited me to purchase the vehicle for $26,500 and that they were going to remove the listing from ebay. had i actually read the email when it was sent, i would've replied, thanks but no thanks. i'll stick to my bid of $20,200 and see how it goes.

the 2nd and final email recieved about 3 minutes AFTER the end of auction informed me that the car was sold earlier in the day to someone for $26,000 and that a $5,000 deposit was already made.

now i haven't read through the entire thread for the M3 that Dooma350 bid and won for $60k but i'm going to hazard to guess that EBay resolutions department simply told him there's nothing they can do to enforce the transaction....cause that's what they told me.

so what am i going to do? i'm going to make sure i spread the word to as many people as i can (I'm Canadian so the internet sure helps eh?) and i'm going to take your suggestions and support. wish me luck, maybe i'll get lucky and actually end up getting the dealership to sell me a car. you'd think in this economy, they'd be happy to do so...

Last edited by choda; 08-04-2010 at 02:17 AM..
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      08-04-2010, 02:22 AM   #2
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Man another dealer trying to snake out of a auction... Crooks.

Well like in the M3 auction the best thing you can do is keep pushing for it and keep spreading the story.

Good luck man.
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      08-04-2010, 05:34 AM   #3
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CROCK OF SHIT!!!!!! Ebay will enforce the auction unless there was a reserve price set on the vehicle which you did not meet. It is a legal binding contract if you win an auction on EBAY....... I am the Ebay guru. If you won the auction at the price they wanted and you backed out, believe your bottom dollar they would have their attorneys contacting you. If they will not honor the CONTRACT that is made when you set your bid, you contact an Attorney and one will surely jump at this easy win case.

Joy bidding is unfair to sellers and Ebay has teams of folks to legally pursue those that do it, same goes for the other side againt sellers that screw buyers.

Good Luck
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      08-04-2010, 09:32 AM   #4
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it was a no reserve auction. Ebay emailed me back to state that they are not able to force sellers to sell....although i'd agree with you that if the opposite were true and i bid $40k for the truck, i'm pretty sure i'd be hearing from their legal dept right about now.

with EBay's inaction, the entire EBay motors is a scam in my opinion. there is no point bidding on a car (and taking a big risk buying a vehicle sight unseen) if the seller can simply walk away. of course i expect to end up paying less for the car than i would locally. that's the whole point of auction!

just got an 2nd email back from ebay motors as i type....
incredible. "bids place on ebay motors are non-binding!!!!!" holy crap!

here's the full email:

Dear Victor,

Thank you for writing back about the seller not honoring the sale of the
2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser that you recently tried to purchase on eBay.

Sellers can cancel transactions for many reasons and although it is discouraged, it is not against eBay policy. eBay is only a venue and does not guarantee that a seller will complete a transaction. Per our User Agreement, we state:

"We are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. While we may help facilitate the resolution of disputes through various programs, we have no control over and do not guarantee the quality, safety, or legality of items advertised, the truth or accuracy of users? content or listings, the ability of sellers to sell items, the ability of buyers to pay for items, or that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction or return an item."

In addition, for legal reasons and per our User Agreement, bids placed in the eBay Motors categories are non-binding. You are encouraged to leave feedback for the seller to alert other bidders of your experience with this seller.

You should seek the advice of your attorney for further direction and guidance on the matter. I'm sure this was frustrating and I apologize for the disappointment. If you need further assistance, please don't hesitate to reply to this email and let us know.

Regards,

Cheri
eBay Customer Service

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      08-04-2010, 10:02 AM   #5
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Bids are not binding but what about agreeing to list the item?
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      08-04-2010, 10:22 AM   #6
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That's the unfortunate part of buying on ebay. You would think that it's binding but they have no power to enforce. They're just a listing site. They supposedly can freeze your account for shady things but I think they just don't care.

Besides spreading this around the internet you can also speak with your feedback. If other buyers see that the dealer screwed you they will be a lot less likely to buy from that seller.
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      08-04-2010, 10:26 AM   #7
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You could contact your local news stations, the news stations in the dealership's area, and contacting automotive blogs like Autoblog. They all love crap like this.

I would also take screenshots of the ebay page just in case it disappears.
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      08-04-2010, 10:34 AM   #8
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as you haven't read the original thread, let me give you the spark notes version.....

He won the car for cheap.
News station wouldn't help.
Ebay wouldn't help.
Local wouldn't help.
Internet wouldn't help
(still worth trying all these avenues).

What DID help was getting a lawyer (it all becomes a money thing to you in the end, is it worth the cost of the lawyer? it was for the m3). What was ruled was that ebay auctions were still contracts, and they were still contractually obligated to sell you that car for that price (barring of course that it was ACTUALLY sold for 26k before auction end.... which they'd have to prove (keeping in mind that story might be true)).
What happened in the m3 case is it hadn't been sold, and they took it to court, and were awarded the car.
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      08-04-2010, 11:02 AM   #9
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Good Luck!
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      08-04-2010, 11:43 AM   #10
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great advice.
reality is sobering isn't it?
as far as getting a lawyer to pursue this, i'm probably not going that route.
i'm going to assume the car was sold to someone else. it's pretty easy for the dealership to write up a bill of sale and back date it if they need to.
also, for the amount of money we're looking at. $26,000 vs 20,200, legal fees would eat that up very quickly. sadly, the little guy never wins in these situations. but the dealership really hasn't a clue how much damage bad PR can do to their reputation.

being an M3 forum, i doubt many of you are Toyota's demographic, but if you were to consider buying a toyota, i'm sure you'd all avoid this Houston dealership like the plague. they're one of the biggest in the country yet they step over dollars for dimes. real classy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freakazoid View Post
as you haven't read the original thread, let me give you the spark notes version.....

He won the car for cheap.
News station wouldn't help.
Ebay wouldn't help.
Local wouldn't help.
Internet wouldn't help
(still worth trying all these avenues).

What DID help was getting a lawyer (it all becomes a money thing to you in the end, is it worth the cost of the lawyer? it was for the m3). What was ruled was that ebay auctions were still contracts, and they were still contractually obligated to sell you that car for that price (barring of course that it was ACTUALLY sold for 26k before auction end.... which they'd have to prove (keeping in mind that story might be true)).
What happened in the m3 case is it hadn't been sold, and they took it to court, and were awarded the car.
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      08-04-2010, 01:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choda View Post
great advice.
reality is sobering isn't it?
as far as getting a lawyer to pursue this, i'm probably not going that route.
i'm going to assume the car was sold to someone else. it's pretty easy for the dealership to write up a bill of sale and back date it if they need to.
also, for the amount of money we're looking at. $26,000 vs 20,200, legal fees would eat that up very quickly. sadly, the little guy never wins in these situations. but the dealership really hasn't a clue how much damage bad PR can do to their reputation.

being an M3 forum, i doubt many of you are Toyota's demographic, but if you were to consider buying a toyota, i'm sure you'd all avoid this Houston dealership like the plague. they're one of the biggest in the country yet they step over dollars for dimes. real classy.

Unfortunately that's why you really don't stand much of a chance with the cruiser. The M3 worked well because it's not a fast selling object (so even back dating a sale would be hard if not impossible when it's still on the lot in a week or 2 or 3), and they would have to have proof of a check, etc. Additionally the $$ discrepancy was huge (I wanna say like 15-20k?), so the lawyer fees only took out a chunk of that.
Still try the news stations, etc. And post everywhere possible, that's your best recourse.
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      08-04-2010, 02:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choda View Post
great advice.
reality is sobering isn't it?
as far as getting a lawyer to pursue this, i'm probably not going that route.
i'm going to assume the car was sold to someone else. it's pretty easy for the dealership to write up a bill of sale and back date it if they need to.
also, for the amount of money we're looking at. $26,000 vs 20,200, legal fees would eat that up very quickly. sadly, the little guy never wins in these situations. but the dealership really hasn't a clue how much damage bad PR can do to their reputation.

being an M3 forum, i doubt many of you are Toyota's demographic, but if you were to consider buying a toyota, i'm sure you'd all avoid this Houston dealership like the plague. they're one of the biggest in the country yet they step over dollars for dimes. real classy.
Let me think out loud for a moment: Assuming they had honored the deal, you'd now have a car worth $26,000 (their claim to have it sold at that price could backfire here) but you would have paid only $20,000. Hence, not honoring this deal caused you a damage of $6,000. If this happened in Germany, I'd say forget the car and go for the money. Maybe somebody can comment if it's the same in the US, but I would be surprised if not.


Best regards,
south
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      08-04-2010, 06:09 PM   #13
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id say submit your story to autoblog and edmunds and any other car sites you can get ahold of. name the dealership and stuff. im sure the dealer will love all the free pr
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      08-04-2010, 07:12 PM   #14
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If bids are non-binding on eBay Motors, then that means people can bid for entertainment and decide not to follow through if they don't feel like it. That certainly can amount to a big waste of time for sellers. It makes eBay seem like a pretty stupid venue to sell cars.

So nothing keeps anybody from making high bids on any cars they might see Fred Hass Toyota in Houston trying to sell from now on. And then after the bid's over just saying, "oh, never mind."
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      08-04-2010, 07:35 PM   #15
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As has been said before, e-mail sites like Autoblog, Jalopnik and Edmunds. They love to report on these things. Get in touch with the local TV stations as well (though they may be willing to do nothing because of advertising money) and talk to a lawyer.
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      08-04-2010, 08:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stickypaws View Post
If bids are non-binding on eBay Motors, then that means people can bid for entertainment and decide not to follow through if they don't feel like it. That certainly can amount to a big waste of time for sellers. It makes eBay seem like a pretty stupid venue to sell cars.

So nothing keeps anybody from making high bids on any cars they might see Fred Hass Toyota in Houston trying to sell from now on. And then after the bid's over just saying, "oh, never mind."
I have a feeling some members may already have Fred Haas ebay auctions bookmarked....entertainment for those slow days at the office

here's the kicker, there are two Fred Haas dealerships. the one that refused to sell me the car is a satellite office. the original Fred Haas is one of the largest Toyota dealerships in the country. In error, i ended up emailing the GM of the larger office and he's had his sales manager follow up with me. they are fuming that the actions of the satellite office have now dragged their name in the mud. and promise to make it right by me. we shall see. i'll keep y'all in the loop.
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      08-05-2010, 03:10 AM   #17
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exact thing that happened to the guy who bid for the M3 on ebay and won
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      08-05-2010, 10:08 AM   #18
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this sucks though but I have to say since bids are non-binding for Ebay motors, it protects both buyers and sellers.

You can win an auction as a buyer, inspect the car, and if it's not good, you can back out and be protected from possible scam. Same on the sell side, if you think you can sell at a better price, you would just back out on a low stopout.

As you can see the only winner in this is ebay. Ebay collected a posting and "sale" fee from the seller for your FJ that sold for $20k. Ebay doesn't care whether the actual transaction/delivery occurred properly, they are only in the business of matching buyers and sellers.

In the OTC secruities market term:
You essentially got a "fail" in the delivery portion of the transaction, oh well. These things happen, move on. Why involve lawyers and what not, if the agreement on ebay is nonbinding, it's nonbinding, nothing you can do. I can't see how a lawyer can win this case if both sellers and buyers agreed to the ebay terms before participating. Believe me, Ebay has many lawyers who had spent a career making sure their terms are bulletproof.

Last edited by mdosu; 08-05-2010 at 10:13 AM..
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      08-05-2010, 10:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Fool View Post
CROCK OF SHIT!!!!!! Ebay will enforce the auction unless there was a reserve price set on the vehicle which you did not meet. It is a legal binding contract if you win an auction on EBAY....... I am the Ebay guru. If you won the auction at the price they wanted and you backed out, believe your bottom dollar they would have their attorneys contacting you. If they will not honor the CONTRACT that is made when you set your bid, you contact an Attorney and one will surely jump at this easy win case.

Joy bidding is unfair to sellers and Ebay has teams of folks to legally pursue those that do it, same goes for the other side againt sellers that screw buyers.

Good Luck
you may be right with regular ebay stuff, but not ebay motors.
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      08-05-2010, 10:23 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
you may be right with regular ebay stuff, but not ebay motors.
correct.

Again probably not worth the legislation fees...

you're right ebay has lawyers...protecting THEMSELVES...you're not forming a contract with ebay, you're forming with the seller
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      08-05-2010, 10:32 AM   #21
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Wow, another one. Check out the story of some dude who got a Dodge Challenger for $14k under the listed price. Dealer didn't want to honor it but did so in the end.

Hope you get yours too OP.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/22/w...and-then-some/
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      08-05-2010, 10:39 AM   #22
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I think its funny to read their actual ebay page he posted. The part where they will leave neg feedback unless you follow through on your bid. And the part about them "guaranteeing" your trip to Fred Haas will be the best car buying experience!!! What a crock. I'll pass this along....
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