Cliche... E46 M3 vs E92 M3 Thread

[spxxx]

Hi all! I'm somewhat regular here in the e9x track group as you guys seem to be the most active and helpful. A little background to fill y'all in on where I'm coming from with this question...

My 2 current cars:

• E82 135i/1Mconversion
• half cage
• gutted a bit (175lb reduction)
• MCSs
• Partial 1Mconversion
• everything swapped to spherical/delrin in the bushing department)
• Basically as good as it gets for that platform on track without going full racecar - there's not a single modification that this car needs and it's quite dialed in for the track but I'd love something higher revving and without turbos although this car has no heat issues and I've been tracking it for ~3yrs

- E46 M3 SMG

• This is the new project but with E9x M3 prices dropping like crazy, I'm thinking of going that route as all my track mods from the E82 will swap over easily.
  
• I have purchased most of everything needed to get this car ready for the track (suspension, bushings, reinforced subframe, etc, etc) besides a partial cage & safety gear. I would likely need to do a 6MT swap soon and none of my existing parts would swap over.
  
• I could probably get rid of this car for ~$10k and pickup an E9x M3 for ~20k which is what I'm leaning toward at this point.

Does anyone on here have experience on both e9x m3 & E46 m3 chassis on track? Might be a bit biased on this forum but I wanted to get some feedback from the group.

** My next chassis will be gutted and properly caged so I want to do it right from the onset.

Thanks!

[roastbeef]

redpriest is going to have a ton of good info. he has a mt f82 m4, a dct e92 m3 that went from a street car into a racecar, and a mt e46 m3 that was built when he bought it. he has a ton of track seat time in each, and knows what he is doing.

spxx, have you driven an e9x m3 yet? these cars are super reliable and have a great attitude on an off track. i don't have any experience in an e46, but i have observed them in that environment. most of the e46's i have encountered aren't terribly fast in the straights. there was one e46 i encountered that was gutted. i don't know what engine mods he had, but the thing absolutely blew my doors off in the straights and in the corners at auto club (big roval). i don't know how much money it took to get to that point... i guess the point i'm trying to make is that i see more e9x m3's that WOW me for being quick than e46's. of course, this is separate from how a car will make you "feel", which is what the e46 is typically praised for.
i feel like the e9x has been staying relevant and competitive at the track because it is a good platform and has good power right out of the box. catalyst removal and a tune will only help.
i don't think there is a significant difference in consumables between the two.

[dparm]

I guess it would come down to what your goals and expectations are here -- can you elaborate? Both of those cars are known for their track prowess and have a huge aftermarket.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by spxxx

Does anyone on here have experience on both e9x m3 & E46 m3 chassis on track? Might be a bit biased on this forum but I wanted to get some feedback from the group.

I've done 100k miles on the E46M and many, many track days.
Then I bought an E92 M3 and have done many track days on that. Now I'm driving an E90 which is pretty dedicated to the track.

As sometimes I have 3 drivers and only 2 cars, I have been able to drive both on the same track day with the same tires, brakes and suspension. For a couple years.

Although I love the E46 and S54, the comparison is a waste of time. The E9X at a similar state of tune is from 5 to 8 seconds faster with the same driver around a 2:15 min course.

The E9X is not only way more powerful, but the chassis received a huge upgrade vs the E46. The E36 and E46 chassis are similar, then there was a step change in the E9X and now the F8X is also a small upgrade vs the E9X.
[hopefully the G8X will be another step change]

admranger and bigjae1976 and kaiv also have both tracked both platforms

The interesting part of the E9X is that it's better in every way than the E46 on the track. More stable, much happier to rotate on throttle, more forgiving, more communicative, insane S65 howl, etc etc.

With the price of E9Xs now I think it's a monumental mistake to build an E46 track car.


PS: opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. If you want to know my experience level PM me

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I've done 100k miles on the E46M and many, many track days.
Then I bought an E92 M3 and have done many track days on that. Now I'm driving an E90 which is pretty dedicated to the track.

As sometimes I have 3 drivers and only 2 cars, I have been able to drive both on the same track day with the same tires, brakes and suspension. For a couple years.

Although I love the E46 and S54, the comparison is a waste of time. The E9X at a similar state of tune is from 5 to 8 seconds faster with the same driver around a 2:15 min course.

The E9X is not only way more powerful, but the chassis received a huge upgrade vs the E46. The E36 and E46 chassis are similar, then there was a step change in the E9X and now the F8X is also a small upgrade vs the E9X.
[hopefully the G8X will be another step change]

admranger and bigjae1976 and kaiv also have both tracked both platforms

The interesting part of the E9X is that it's better in every way than the E46 on the track. More stable, much happier to rotate on throttle, more forgiving, more communicative, insane S65 howl, etc etc.

With the price of E9Xs now I think it's a monumental mistake to build an E46 track car.


PS: opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. If you want to know my experience level PM me

Are we counting weight loss? I wanna see some E9x's do 1:3x on NT01's around Mid Ohio

IMO it depends on your budget. I saved $10k+ getting an E46 which left a lot more room for fun stuff. Problem is (depending on your POV) now I have to trailer the car. If you wanna keep it street and drive to/from the track, E9x may be better way to go.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Are we counting weight loss? I wanna see some E9x's do 1:3x on NT01's around Mid Ohio

IMO it depends on your budget. I saved $10k+ getting an E46 which left a lot more room for fun stuff. Problem is (depending on your POV) now I have to trailer the car. If you wanna keep it street and drive to/from the track, E9x may be better way to go.

No, we're talking about regular weight cars. I wish I could strip on of the E9Xs but I can't put a trailer anywhere so I want my cars street legal and I'd like to survive the drive.
The only weight loss is the same kind of thing I did to the E46M: remove rear seats and seat backs.

Last year I had the E92 and E90 at MO and both cars did under 1:40 per SoloDL. One car had NT01 and the other RE71. Granted they both have suspensions.
The fastest I've seen there is 1:38.0x IIRC and it was also a full weight E9X M3.

The key part here is 'equal drivers'. I don't care that someone is really good and can do 1:30.0 at MO with an E46M3. You're a great driver and very fast, but I'd bet money you'd be faster in the E9X.

Back to back between the E46M and the E9X makes it very, very clear. It's not like I've done this once.

It's possible that in smaller tracks the gap between both is diminished, so if someone wants to spend their day in Limerock I doubt they'll see such a huge advantage in the E9X.
Personally, I feel like is too short to spend significant time outside of WGI/VIR and maybe Pitt Race.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Are we counting weight loss? I wanna see some E9x's do 1:3x on NT01's around Mid Ohio

IMO it depends on your budget. I saved $10k+ getting an E46 which left a lot more room for fun stuff. Problem is (depending on your POV) now I have to trailer the car. If you wanna keep it street and drive to/from the track, E9x may be better way to go.

I'm surprised you found an E46M3 on the cheap. The prices on them have been rising I thought...

Make sure you reinforce that rear subframe and do the vanos. Use the Redish reinforcement plates and for extra strength double foam the rear. There's an even more stout repair out there involving quite a bit of fabrication, but for a track only car I'd consider doing it.

Street legal there's no comparison on a track of any length. E9xM3 is gonna spank the E46M3. That being said, the E46M3 is a car you dance on the track with. You wrestle the E9xM3 around the track. Both are a whole lot of fun.

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

No, we're talking about regular weight cars. I wish I could strip on of the E9Xs but I can't put a trailer anywhere so I want my cars street legal and I'd like to survive the drive.
The only weight loss is the same kind of thing I did to the E46M: remove rear seats and seat backs.

Last year I had the E92 and E90 at MO and both cars did under 1:40 per SoloDL. One car had NT01 and the other RE71. Granted they both have suspensions.
The fastest I've seen there is 1:38.0x IIRC and it was also a full weight E9X M3.

The key part here is 'equal drivers'. I don't care that someone is really good and can do 1:30.0 at MO with an E46M3. You're a great driver and very fast, but I'd bet money you'd be faster in the E9X.

Back to back between the E46M and the E9X makes it very, very clear. It's not like I've done this once.

It's possible that in smaller tracks the gap between both is diminished, so if someone wants to spend their day in Limerock I doubt they'll see such a huge advantage in the E9X.
Personally, I feel like is too short to spend significant time outside of WGI/VIR and maybe Pitt Race.

Yep, I've never drive one, but I bet I would be too, especially if it's not mine! I want hp AND low weight! Fastest speed I've seen down the back straight at MO so far is 135mph.

[M3 Number 86]

You can get rid of seats, carpet, speakers, doorcards, etc and it's still street legal though. Shit you can add a baby seat still lol

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

You can get rid of seats, carpet, speakers, doorcards, etc and it's still street legal though. Shit you can add a baby seat still lol

Yes, but you still have to drive it on the street.

I drive as much as 10h to tracks. It taxes my patience with race seats, 700/1000 springs, etc. I could never do it with a stripped interior although you're right, it would be technically legal

I drove the M4 GTS 250 miles on Sunday and was annoyed at how much road noise I heard and the harshness of the suspension.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Yep, I've never drive one, but I bet I would be too, especially if it's not mine! I want hp AND low weight! Fastest speed I've seen down the back straight at MO so far is 135mph.

Yup I get what you mean hehe

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by admranger

I'm surprised you found an E46M3 on the cheap. The prices on them have been rising I thought...

Make sure you reinforce that rear subframe and do the vanos. Use the Redish reinforcement plates and for extra strength double foam the rear. There's an even more stout repair out there involving quite a bit of fabrication, but for a track only car I'd consider doing it.

Street legal there's no comparison on a track of any length. E9xM3 is gonna spank the E46M3. That being said, the E46M3 is a car you dance on the track with. You wrestle the E9xM3 around the track. Both are a whole lot of fun.

Yep, got lucky and found a 115k mile relatively unmolested example for $11.2k... around Jan 2016. The car is fully tracked out now with kirk rollbar, still has 3 point seatbelts. Did all the reinforcements before I started tracking it - I do my own labor so that helps cost. If anybody is interested the build thread is here:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=549226

Again, this is just an E46 perspective, not familiar with the E9x platform or the costs!

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I've done 100k miles on the E46M and many, many track days.
Then I bought an E92 M3 and have done many track days on that. Now I'm driving an E90 which is pretty dedicated to the track.

As sometimes I have 3 drivers and only 2 cars, I have been able to drive both on the same track day with the same tires, brakes and suspension. For a couple years.

Although I love the E46 and S54, the comparison is a waste of time. The E9X at a similar state of tune is from 5 to 8 seconds faster with the same driver around a 2:15 min course.

The E9X is not only way more powerful, but the chassis received a huge upgrade vs the E46. The E36 and E46 chassis are similar, then there was a step change in the E9X and now the F8X is also a small upgrade vs the E9X.
[hopefully the G8X will be another step change]

admranger and bigjae1976 and kaiv also have both tracked both platforms

The interesting part of the E9X is that it's better in every way than the E46 on the track. More stable, much happier to rotate on throttle, more forgiving, more communicative, insane S65 howl, etc etc.

With the price of E9Xs now I think it's a monumental mistake to build an E46 track car.


PS: opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one. If you want to know my experience level PM me

This is exactly how I feel about building the e46, I know the newer e9x suspension geometry is far superior, slightly longer wheelbase will make the car more stable and I work from home and have an extra car (+ trailer) so I can gut it pretty heavily.

I also really want the DCT vs running the SMG for one track day and then doing a 6spd conversion and being even more in the hole when I can just pickup a salvage E92 with ~80k miles for under $20k and put it on an immediate diet.

Goals for the car are Nasa TT and time attack events (e46 has more options for wheel to wheel because of its power/weight) - the car will be used on the street for a while which is another point for the E92. I'm still having fun with my E82 on track so the M3 wouldn't get fully built until next year although I have an appointment at TC design next week to talk about plans for the car. Big plus is that I can swap everything over as the e82 & e9x have the same suspension design just a twitchy shorter wheelbase

UGH I guess I need to just consider the e46 purchase a sunk cost and start looking for an E92.

Anyone want a track ready dual-duty E46?

[admranger]

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

Yep, got lucky and found a 115k mile relatively unmolested example for $11.2k... around Jan 2015. The car is fully tracked out now with kirk rollbar, still has 3 point seatbelts. Did all the reinforcements before I started tracking it - I do my own labor so that helps cost. If anybody is interested the build thread is here:
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=549226

Again, this is just an E46 perspective, not familiar with the E9x platform or the costs!

Stole it. Nice!

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

You can get rid of seats, carpet, speakers, doorcards, etc and it's still street legal though. Shit you can add a baby seat still lol

Haha I've been street driving my half caged e82 with race seats and harnesses this week, love the looks when I have to pull into the office or hit the dog park with my pup tethered to the cage.

Look at GT3rs interiors, super functional IMO. Those little rear seat indentations would hold a child fine... Just tell him to hold on tight and watch out for the main hoop

[bigjae1976]

I agree with SYT_shadow and Admranger.

I know the hardcore E46 guys with their classic look, steering and driver feel want to say that the E46 is a capable chassis. Compared to an E9X M3, it's not.

The only e46s that could get by me on track in my Dinan stage 2 E90 M3 were full blown GTS2 race cars with aero.

In reality, an E9X isn't that much heavier than an E46. The only time it felt heavier was in a quick switchback.

The only downer is an E9X M3 eats tires and brakes and drinks gas at an alarming rate. Probably worse with a DCT but I figured about 5MPG. The cluster only goes down to 6. Usually drinks a 1/3 of a tank per session. Expect to spend more on tires and brakes...about 50% more.

[G80indy]

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I agree with SYT_shadow and Admranger.

I know the hardcore E46 guys with their classic look, steering and driver feel want to say that the E46 is a capable chassis. Compared to an E9X M3, it's not.

The only e46s that could get by me on track in my Dinan stage 2 E90 M3 were full blown GTS2 race cars with aero.

In reality, an E9X isn't that much heavier than an E46. The only time it felt heavier was in a quick switchback.

The only downer is an E9X M3 eats tires and brakes and drinks gas at an alarming rate. Probably worse with a DCT but I figured about 5MPG. The cluster only goes down to 6. Usually drinks a 1/3 of a tank per session. Expect to spend more on tires and brakes...about 50% more.

I'm fairly accustomed to heavy consumables with my E82 that weighs 3400 wet.

I've made up my mind haha - just wanted to post this in the M3post forum to fully convince myself that the e46 was a sunk cost and the E92 is the way to go. Stoked to compare it to my E82 on track!

Have buyers coming this weekend to look at the E46 and now I'm scouring BRZO to find the perfect E92 DCT.

[spxxx]

Originally Posted by 330indy

How's the popcorn?

[G80indy]

Originally Posted by spxxx

How's the popcorn?

quite delicious
Thanks
Lovin this convo

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by spxxx

Does anyone on here have experience on both e9x m3 & E46 m3 chassis on track? Might be a bit biased on this forum but I wanted to get some feedback from the group.

** My next chassis will be gutted and properly caged so I want to do it right from the onset.

Thanks!

E92 M3 is a fairly heavy car even stripped although the center of gravity is low thanks to CFRP roof. You are looking at around 1,500kg with backseats stripped and race seats installed. It is also crazy expensive to mod compared to E36&E46.

I had E36 M3C (S50B32 engine, euro) which is around 100kg lighter than E46 M3. With 245 squared setup, it would be fairly easy to pass stock/slightly modified E92s on Okayama international. Not to mention it is much more fun to throw around corners.

I would get E46 M3 in MT, strip it, reinforce subframe and drive the hell out of it on track. If you want some comfort around the street & something different from E46 that has brute straight line acceleration, get E92 M3. E92 interior is too damn fine to strip it IMHO..

[roastbeef]

Just come to the dark side. Don't resist the v8.