BEST BBK on the market?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

PFC 11
CT 1521 (street)

Very nice. That's what I use on all the cars as well!

[admranger]

I can solve this very easily. Using the same pad compound, put PFC brakes on one side of the car, AP on the other. Determine which way the car pulls under braking. Done. Do you guys have any hard questions?

For the people on this forum, I'm gonna bet 10% actually *need* a BBK. dogbone and his forced induction monstrosity -- yes. Everyone else - probably not. Need vs. nice to have are different things. Doggone's data plots show his braking technique. Good technique and the stock system will result in shorter braking distances than a BBK with poor technique (pad compound staying the same), until heat takes over. Repeatability is much easier with a BBK and thermal management is better, no doubt. I've seen the $ arguments for the track day warriors (btdt) and those make sense, but I've only seen it done for lesser kits, not $8k+ kits. And for all the arguments about weight, this always brings me back to my bicycle wrenching days when the guy with the beer belly wanted to know if he should buy the titanium bolt kit for his brakes. "Definitely." Right after you lose 20 lbs of fat. (Kept that last part silent).

# of vanes discussion makes me think of this quote: “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.” Until I see the analyses, I'll assume both work for their intended purposes (in these kits).

Both kits are good. One is likely good-er-er than the other to some extent in some cases at some point in time. We've already established that a brake comparison test is logistically beyond the ability of us to do, so we'll never know for sure which is better-est. We'll have to vote with our wallets. I voted for stock brakes, SRF fluid, and PFC-08 pads. Your situation may vary.

I will, however, take one for the team and try both systems out. Please send new kits to me. I'll even install them myself since I'm a humanitarian. PM for shipping address. I won't even charge for my time or entry fees. :thumbs:

[kawstik]

I honestly don't think you can go wrong with either kit, but coming from someone who runs a PFC 54/45 kit, I can't imagine there is anything better out there. It just works, all the time. No knockback. No surprises. No fading. Just confident threshold braking at every turn.

Trail braking is more conducive to faster times at my local track, and going from threshold braking to easing into entry corner braking, over and over, in my experience, has shown the true colors of lesser BBKs. The PFC kit takes your worst and asks for more.

My 2c.

[kawstik]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

If i remember correctly, the z54 kit uses the 'zero drag' setup and it isn't hard to turn the wheels by hand. I don't know if i have knockback springs or not, but don't tap the brakes before going into braking zones and never pump twice

You do. I recently had my z54s powder coated and can confirm that there are knockback springs. You are also correct about the 'zero drag' feature.

[nicksm3]

Thank you everyone who chimed in and shared you’re knowledge.
I made this post not to outshine one kit over another but to have fellow track nuts explain their true heart felt views/impressions on a quality system.
My purchase came in the mail and will be getting them installed before this Saturday at Limerock. Yes...I will be sharing my insight on how this new system delivers....stay tuned.

[roastbeef]

Very nice.

[VictorH]

Originally Posted by nicksm3

Thank you everyone who chimed in and shared you’re knowledge.
I made this post not to outshine one kit over another but to have fellow track nuts explain their true heart felt views/impressions on a quality system.
My purchase came in the mail and will be getting them installed before this Saturday at Limerock. Yes...I will be sharing my insight on how this new system delivers....stay tuned.

It would be a shame to get those dirty by running them at a track event.

Re the "low drag," and "zero drag" systems, they are two different calipers. PFC says their conventional systems are "low drag." Compared to stock I'd say (I have compared back to back) they may be "low drag" for a big brake set up but they are not less drag than the stock set up.

The zero drag calipers are a whole different animal. They have developed a electro-mechanical system that retracts the pads away from the rotor so there is no pad drag on the rotor. It's a pretty innovative feature and my understanding is this system is standard on the 2018 Porsche GT3 and upcoming GT3 RS (the 991.2 version).

[nicksm3]

Originally Posted by VictorH

It would be a shame to get those dirty by running them at a track event.

Re the "low drag," and "zero drag" systems, they are two different calipers. PFC says their conventional systems are "low drag." Compared to stock I'd say (I have compared back to back) they may be "low drag" for a big brake set up but they are not less drag than the stock set up.

The zero drag calipers are a whole different animal. They have developed a electro-mechanical system that retracts the pads away from the rotor so there is no pad drag on the rotor. It's a pretty innovative feature and my understanding is this system is standard on the 2018 Porsche GT3 and upcoming GT3 RS (the 991.2 version).

You are correct about the Cupcar system sir!

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by admranger

For the people on this forum, I'm gonna bet 10% actually *need* a BBK.

I'm not one of the 10%, but you know, I bought some stuff anyways.

Question: How many track days (assuming 3 20-min sessions each) do you get on a set of pads? How about rotors?

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Visceral

I'm not one of the 10%, but you know, I bought some stuff anyways.

Question: How many track days (assuming 3 20-min sessions each) do you get on a set of pads? How about rotors?

A lot, but I have mad skillz. If I could justify it, I'd buy a BBK too. They're damn nice and make life a lot easier on the track. Fact remains, few of us, including me, really "need" one.

On the E46M3 w/PFC DD rotors, I never wore those rotors out. Frankly I don't have records on how many track days I had on the rotors before I sold the car. I went through 1 set of PFC 08s, but it took a long time.

I haven't used up the first set of rotors on the E90M3 and I have 40k miles on it. I did try another set of rotors for my COTA trip, but I didn't like them so I put the stock ones back on. PFC 08s on track. Even 3 days at Laguna hardly touched the pads and Laguna is awful on brakes.

FWIW, on the E46M3 club race car I ran in stock class for years so I had to use the stock brakes per the rules. Back then I measured rotor wear after each event. I'd see 0.001" of wear for a weekend. This was standard weekend in and weekend out. Minor variations in the ten thousandth of an inch depending on the track and track temps. Car was 3175 lbs dry, so it was a lot of work for the stock brakes, even with cooling ducts. Pad thickness I never measured nor tracked (Where was SYT_Shadow when I needed him?!).

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by admranger

A lot, but I have mad skillz.

I haven't used up the first set of rotors on the E90M3 and I have 40k miles on it.

The rotors i received as part of the new car are done at 44k... they warp under hard street driving. So I'm going to try F80 rotors with C7Z06 calipers and see if I can develop my own mad skillz, yo.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by admranger

A lot, but I have mad skillz. If I could justify it, I'd buy a BBK too. They're damn nice and make life a lot easier on the track. Fact remains, few of us, including me, really "need" one.

On the E46M3 w/PFC DD rotors, I never wore those rotors out. Frankly I don't have records on how many track days I had on the rotors before I sold the car. I went through 1 set of PFC 08s, but it took a long time.

I haven't used up the first set of rotors on the E90M3 and I have 40k miles on it. I did try another set of rotors for my COTA trip, but I didn't like them so I put the stock ones back on. PFC 08s on track. Even 3 days at Laguna hardly touched the pads and Laguna is awful on brakes.

FWIW, on the E46M3 club race car I ran in stock class for years so I had to use the stock brakes per the rules. Back then I measured rotor wear after each event. I'd see 0.001" of wear for a weekend. This was standard weekend in and weekend out. Minor variations in the ten thousandth of an inch depending on the track and track temps. Car was 3175 lbs dry, so it was a lot of work for the stock brakes, even with cooling ducts. Pad thickness I never measured nor tracked (Where was SYT_Shadow when I needed him?!).

Here I am

The PFC DD are incredible, really that's all most people need on the stock system.
I still have my pfc dd front and rear rotors for the E46 I sold. The fronts finally cracked but the rears are happy. Gotta sell them...

On the E90, with +40 track days a year, the bbk makes sense methinks. And i enjoy scaring people in the tech line when they see the fat pads!

[admranger]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

i enjoy scaring people in the tech line when they see the fat pads!

Marshmallows. Tell them that's what they're made of.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by Visceral

The rotors i received as part of the new car are done at 44k... they warp under hard street driving. So I'm going to try F80 rotors with C7Z06 calipers and see if I can develop my own mad skillz, yo.

Brakes only slow you down (not true). Mine last longer b/c I don't use them (also not true). I do drive flat out though.

The largest single thing you can do to help your brakes last longer is to get your braking done as quickly as possible. Hardest braking when you are at your highest speed. Why? More airflow to take the heat away and less time with the brakes applied. Why believe me? You don't have to because I didn't say this. Bill Auberlin did.

Still don't believe it? Drag your brakes lightly around the track at a speed you can take every corner w/o adding more brakes. Lemme no how that works out.

[kawstik]

Originally Posted by admranger

Brakes only slow you down (not true). Mine last longer b/c I don't use them (also not true). I do drive flat out though.

The largest single thing you can do to help your brakes last longer is to get your braking done as quickly as possible. Hardest braking when you are at your highest speed. Why? More airflow to take the heat away and less time with the brakes applied. Why believe me? You don't have to because I didn't say this. Bill Auberlin did.

Still don't believe it? Drag your brakes lightly around the track at a speed you can take every corner w/o adding more brakes. Lemme no how that works out.

This is only true in some instances and on some tracks. Trail braking, when done correctly, is quite a bit faster than relying on threshold braking alone in most instances, and does little to nothing when it comes to unnecessary wear.

Completely situational, of course.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by kawstik

This is only true in some instances and on some tracks. Trail braking, when done correctly, is quite a bit faster than relying on threshold braking alone in most instances, and does little to nothing when it comes to unnecessary wear.

Completely situational, of course.

I'll let you tell Bill that...

It's true all of the time on all tracks. Thermodynamics don't change that much regardless of your location. Braking at peak efficiency, getting the majority of the braking done quickly, results in better heat transfer, less wear, and faster lap times. Look at the data from dogbone. Look at the shape of the braking curve at the start of the braking zone. It's not a sine wave, it's a cliff.

Trail braking is coming off the brakes while you are turning. You're using the last bit of braking energy to help rotate the car, using up your traction account on the front tires so the rears can rotate easier.

A lot of people brake too long with too little pedal effort. If you're not getting into abs (not due to abruptness) every once in a while while braking in a straight line, you're not trying hard enough. Brake when you see god (or a couple of heartbeats after), put it on its nose (smoothly), and trail off to roll on the throttle. What's bad is braking at 85% for a longer distance. If you do that, you'll see me go by you on the inside.

[Properstyle]

Originally Posted by admranger

A lot of people brake too long with too little pedal effort.

This was me during my track day with my old f80. Partly do to a previous wreck due brake fade I was too much of a novice to notice> I noted after I looked at the log I was double tapping brakes and riding them for fear of touching the pedal and not having anything there. When I finally got my confidence back at the later sessions the brakes lasted a shit tone longer through out the session.

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by admranger

A lot, but I have mad skillz. If I could justify it, I'd buy a BBK too. They're damn nice and make life a lot easier on the track. Fact remains, few of us, including me, really "need" one.

On the E46M3 w/PFC DD rotors, I never wore those rotors out. Frankly I don't have records on how many track days I had on the rotors before I sold the car. I went through 1 set of PFC 08s, but it took a long time.

I haven't used up the first set of rotors on the E90M3 and I have 40k miles on it. I did try another set of rotors for my COTA trip, but I didn't like them so I put the stock ones back on. PFC 08s on track. Even 3 days at Laguna hardly touched the pads and Laguna is awful on brakes.

FWIW, on the E46M3 club race car I ran in stock class for years so I had to use the stock brakes per the rules. Back then I measured rotor wear after each event. I'd see 0.001" of wear for a weekend. This was standard weekend in and weekend out. Minor variations in the ten thousandth of an inch depending on the track and track temps. Car was 3175 lbs dry, so it was a lot of work for the stock brakes, even with cooling ducts. Pad thickness I never measured nor tracked (Where was SYT_Shadow when I needed him?!).

E46 M3, stock brakes with cooling, 3000lbs. I hate chewing through rotors and the pedal feel sucks (MK20). Probably should have gone BBK, but this is the last ditch effort to make it work. Coleman Racing rings on PFC DD hats. Had them cut the rings without gas venting (I'm using DTC-60's). No idea how long they'll last. 16.8lbs vs stock Centric Blanks ~18lbs.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Visceral

C7Z06 calipers

Welcome to the world of insanely expensive brake pads, friend.

(I have those same brakes on my Grand Sport)

[ayao]

How involved was the process for getting some Coleman blanks that fit your PFC hat?

Originally Posted by CorruptCommie

E46 M3, stock brakes with cooling, 3000lbs. I hate chewing through rotors and the pedal feel sucks (MK20). Probably should have gone BBK, but this is the last ditch effort to make it work. Coleman Racing rings on PFC DD hats. Had them cut the rings without gas venting (I'm using DTC-60's). No idea how long they'll last. 16.8lbs vs stock Centric Blanks ~18lbs.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by ayao

How involved was the process for getting some Coleman blanks that fit your PFC hat?

You just send the worn rotor to coleman and they build rotors like them

I have a set of front and rear pfc dd for the e46m waiting to find a home

[CorruptCommie]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

You just send the worn rotor to coleman and they build rotors like them

I have a set of front and rear pfc dd for the e46m waiting to find a home

Exactly, shipped over just side and they sent it back with two new rings. $460 shipped for the E46 (stock rotor size). Took about 3 weeks, give or take.