BMW M3 vs Porsche Carrera which is Quicker

[GPRAbmw]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

It used to be that you could place a reasonable amount of confidence in the Nring times but now that a good time has become such a marketing issue, any laptime now has to be put in context by looking at times at other tracks. Its no coincidence that Porsche has good Nring times given the amount of R&D they put in to achieving them. Its also worth noting that the 997.2 S (with PDK, manual is 8 secs slower apparently) got its 7.50 time on the same Michelin cup tyres that BMW used on the M3CSL (which had an identical time of 7:50).

I have to mention this as well. The M3 CSL is about 150-175 lbs lighter than the 997.2 S and had grippier tires, as I mention in my previous post.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by footie

Frankly I couldn't give a shit what a car did on most tracks as I generally don't drive my cars there

How else can you constructively compare a cars performance other than though straight line and lap times? And picking one set of track times as an illustration of one cars superiority is insufficient.

Originally Posted by footie

The time achieved by the 997.2 S was not with the original CUP tyres but the newer and slightly less grippy CUP+.

Do you have any further info on that? AFAIK the optional tyres used by the 997 were ultra wide custom made (for Porsche) Michelin Pilot Cups (N0s) and differ in design to the not very impressive Cup (+) tyres.

Originally Posted by footie

All we are confirming here is that we both agree that the M3 is great and the Porsche is a bit quicker, both things that I have already said and continue to say.

Indeed though I would note again that the manual 997.2 S for the Nring is 7.58 which taking into account the (what I believe to be) superior rubber is starting to look pretty close to the 8.05 of the manual M3.
The figures do show the 997.2 S as having the edge, the problem is that in a whole day spent driving one, that edge was subtle enough to be barely noticible.

[BimmerBoomer]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Indeed though I would note again that the manual 997.2 S for the Nring is 7.58 which taking into account the (what I believe to be) superior rubber is starting to look pretty close to the 8.05 of the manual M3.
The figures do show the 997.2 S as having the edge, the problem is that in a whole day spent driving one, that edge was subtle enough to be barely noticible.

Aren't you really in agreement with footie here? Track times may be indicative of performance, but 7 seconds - which is huge on the Nring - really doesn't matter on the street.

[footie]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

How else can you constructively compare a cars performance other than though straight line and lap times? And picking one set of track times as an illustration of one cars superiority is insufficient.

Your right of course but I was only highlighting the point that traditional tracks and their track times have little to no bearing on the real world roads where the surface isn't ultra smooth and the track isn't upwards on 15m wide with run-off areas. That's why I personally prefer the honesty of the N-ring where you have to work more within the envelope of the performance of the car instead beyond it.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Do you have any further info on that? AFAIK the optional tyres used by the 997 were ultra wide custom made (for Porsche) Michelin Pilot Cups (N0s) and differ in design to the not very impressive Cup (+) tyres.

This is news to me, the rubber according to what I was told was the same that is fitted to the GT3 which is CUP+ and part of the performance package.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Indeed though I would note again that the manual 997.2 S for the Nring is 7.58 which taking into account the (what I believe to be) superior rubber is starting to look pretty close to the 8.05 of the manual M3.
The figures do show the 997.2 S as having the edge, the problem is that in a whole day spent driving one, that edge was subtle enough to be barely noticible.

The manual was equipped with the stock rubber and not the same as the PDK car. Like for like it would still command a similar 10 or so seconds over a similarly specced M3. And you are right that unless you actually placed both cars side by side with similarly skilled driver to get a proper comparison the difference would appear without this option as barely noticeable.

BTW I'm not really a fan of the 997, I suppose I have made that appear in my many posts but there is no denying that it offers the driver much more involvement and excitement than what you will get from an M3, and in a way it's where part of the extra expense is going, plus the obvious status driving a Porsche brings.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Jim Pearce

Aren't you really in agreement with Footie here? Track times may be indicative of performance, but 7 seconds - which is huge on the Nring - really doesn't matter on the street.

I actually don't think we are that far apart on this subject, it's only the finer details that may differ.

[GPRAbmw]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

How else can you constructively compare a cars performance other than though straight line and lap times? And picking one set of track times as an illustration of one cars superiority is insufficient.



Do you have any further info on that? AFAIK the optional tyres used by the 997 were ultra wide custom made (for Porsche) Michelin Pilot Cups (N0s) and differ in design to the not very impressive Cup (+) tyres.



Indeed though I would note again that the manual 997.2 S for the Nring is 7.58 which taking into account the (what I believe to be) superior rubber is starting to look pretty close to the 8.05 of the manual M3.
The figures do show the 997.2 S as having the edge, the problem is that in a whole day spent driving one, that edge was subtle enough to be barely noticible.

The NO spec PS2's that Porsche uses are not as good as a CUP+ tire. Cup+ is better than a PS2, but not as good as a Pilot Sport Cup.
Anyway, the 997S still have a very clear and distinct advanatage over the M3. PDK has a 15 second better time, and the 997S with Manual has a 7 second better time. Those are very significant amounts of time to make up on the Ring.

[warzilla]

Jeez. Can we end this thread already? People will think what they want on what is better (with their 'proof'). The OP originally just asked what was faster to 60 and the quarter: M3 or the 997.

Now its becoming a pissing contest on who thinks is a better car between:

the M3 vs boxster S, cayman S, 997, 997 TT, 997 GT3, GT-R, etc.

Just be happy with the car you have. If you think its the better car, then be content with your belief.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by warzilla

Jeez. Can we end this thread already? People will think what they want on what is better

Whatever....though if everyone just kept their opinions to themselves then the forum would be very quiet.
Clue...if you've lost interest in a thread topic, stop reading it.

[GPRAbmw]

Originally Posted by warzilla

Jeez. Can we end this thread already? People will think what they want on what is better (with their 'proof'). The OP originally just asked what was faster to 60 and the quarter: M3 or the 997.

Now its becoming a pissing contest on who thinks is a better car between:

the M3 vs boxster S, cayman S, 997, 997 TT, 997 GT3, GT-R, etc.

Just be happy with the car you have. If you think its the better car, then be content with your belief.

I don't think anyone is argueing about the GT3 or 911 Turbo or GT-R. In objective performance terms, they are without any debate better than the M3. It's when people start to stretch and make big differences look small that gets annoying.

The simple answer for the OP, if people were truly objective would have just been the 997.2 C2 is faster, the end.

[yemenmocha]

Originally Posted by murellus

this is the biggest fanboy-war-post ever

No kidding. It's worse than the 350 Z forums. "Our car is a true sports car. The M3 is a big heavy GT pig. Do you know the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?"

Not necessarily are both sides fanboys. If one side is right, the other is the one with the inflated perception of their car and guilty of the fanboism.

As some others point out, it's hilarious how the 'ring times are normally conversation stoppers (especially when it is a 15 second margin between two cars, and the track favors the higher HP car) but apparently the criteria changes when it's your beloved car that has the slower of the two times.

My e46 M3 is about 15 seconds behind the e92 M3, so maybe I should start a thread about how it's basically a driver's race, the cars are incredibly close, and take personal offense to anyone who thinks the current M3 is in a different league than the e46. 15 seconds....

[GPRAbmw]

Originally Posted by yemenmocha

No kidding. It's worse than the 350 Z forums. "Our car is a true sports car. The M3 is a big heavy GT pig. Do you know the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?"

Not necessarily are both sides fanboys. If one side is right, the other is the one with the inflated perception of their car and guilty of the fanboism.

As some others point out, it's hilarious how the 'ring times are normally conversation stoppers (especially when it is a 15 second margin between two cars, and the track favors the higher HP car) but apparently the criteria changes when it's your beloved car that has the slower of the two times.

My e46 M3 is about 15 seconds behind the e92 M3, so maybe I should start a thread about how it's basically a driver's race, the cars are incredibly close, and take personal offense to anyone who thinks the current M3 is in a different league than the e46. 15 seconds....

+1. Funny that when asking an E92 M3 guy how much better the E92 M3 is than the E46 M3, they will quote the 15 second better ring time the E92 M3 has over the E46 M3 and say its a world of difference and extremely superior, yet when its a near entry level 997S that is 15 seconds faster (and clearly extremely superior) than the beloved E92 M3, the difference all of a sudden becomes 'negligable' or 'barely noticeable' as some fanboys here have said. Its quite laugable. Go tell Walter Rohl that a 15 second difference is small, he'd likely laugh in your face.

yemen- youre on M3F right? I think I recognize you from there an 6speed as well.

[Archon]

This thread shows how passionate people become with cars

From C&D:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

With the M3’s many buttons, you can make of it what you want: loafing commuter, track animal, high-speed touring express. But no matter how you set it, the M3 astounds. There’s more front-end grip than most people have the guts to exploit, the steering wheel able to carve perfectly elliptical arcs up a winding road at foolish speeds. Where the 911 battles each corner, sometimes in a nerve-jangling sine wave of alternating grip and push, the M3 is dead calm. It shows hardly any body roll or bobble, the chassis balanced with the poise of a Bolshoi star. Call it insulation, or call it stupendous competence, but the M3 chewed 1.1 seconds off the 911’s best Laguna lap time and was quicker through the lane-change maneuver.


To the OP who didn't really specify the configuration of said 911 other than PDK.

Against a base 911 with PDK - It's pretty even and with a grain of salt to the article I posted, the M3 will win (1.1s) with equal driving. This is with tests happening on the same day on the same track mind you.

Against a 911S, no contest. 911S all the way.

[graider]

is GPRAbmw the same person as shift@red? just saying

[bmwrjs]

Originally Posted by warzilla

Jeez. Can we end this thread already? People will think what they want on what is better (with their 'proof'). The OP originally just asked what was faster to 60 and the quarter: M3 or the 997.

Now its becoming a pissing contest on who thinks is a better car between:

the M3 vs boxster S, cayman S, 997, 997 TT, 997 GT3, GT-R, etc.

Just be happy with the car you have. If you think its the better car, then be content with your belief.

Thank you, I started this thread for one reason, to find out which was quicker, not to start a giant fanboy war

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Jim Pearce

Aren't you really in agreement with Footie here? Track times may be indicative of performance, but 7 seconds - which is huge on the Nring - really doesn't matter on the street.

Technically 7 seconds isn't really a huge gap at the Nordschleife with 21.x kms length, thats 0.3 seconds per kilometer. The M3 will be in the 997S rearviewmirror more than the 997S driver wants....for all of the bl**dy time that is.

But I know the Porsche still is faster...still....I know I know.

[GPRAbmw]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

Technically 7 seconds isn't really a huge gap at the Nordschleife with 21.x kms length, thats 0.3 seconds per kilometer. The M3 will in the 997S rearviewmirror more than the 997S driver wants....

But I know the Porsche still is faster...still....I know I know.

Wouldn't you argue that 15 seconds is big though? On a track that is only a minute to two minute lap, 1-2 seconds is a sizable enough. At 15 seconds you're talking about nearly .7 per kilometer, and just one slight mistake on a curve or an early downshift can result in severe increase of time.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by GPRAbmw

The NO spec PS2's that Porsche uses are not as good as a CUP+ tire. Cup+ is better than a PS2, but not as good as a Pilot Sport Cup.
Anyway, the 997S still have a very clear and distinct advanatage over the M3. PDK has a 15 second better time, and the 997S with Manual has a 7 second better time. Those are very significant amounts of time to make up on the Ring.

LOL, I remember the debate Nissan GTR vs Porsche.

This thread 'feels' the same.

Go GTR, GO ZR1.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by GPRAbmw

Wouldn't you argue that 15 seconds is big though? On a track that is only a minute to two minute lap, 1-2 seconds is a sizable enough. At 15 seconds you're talking about nearly .7 per kilometer, and just one slight mistake on a curve or an early downshift can result in severe increase of time.

I was talking about the manual 997S. That's 7 seconds. So kudos to the PDK box.

As you might know the Nordschleife also has a very very very long straight, in favour of the more aerodynamic and no speedlimited 997S...which makes it a bit more understandable.

Been there done that so to speak.

Anyway the 997S is faster. Period.

But imho it wasn't the better composed allround (fun) car , that's why I chose the E90 M3 and not the 997S and a 120d for the wife and kids.

[Robin_NL]

Come to think of it. M GmbH claims 7:40 Ringtime for its GTS(correct me if I'm wrong) That's only 10 seconds off of the 997.2S PDK. And I don't remember the E46 CSL laptime, was it 7:52 or something like that?

They have to do better than that.

[warzilla]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Whatever....though if everyone just kept their opinions to themselves then the forum would be very quiet.
Clue...if you've lost interest in a thread topic, stop reading it.

Mr Senor 'whatever' pants, I wasn't telling people to shuddup and keep their opinions to themselves. I was just pointing out that this thread has become a silly pissing fanboy contest and enough points were made on what car is 'better' (with no one really moving the needle on each other's viewpoints it seems).

And that the thread has gotten way off track on what the original OP was asking.

Thats all I was saying.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by bmwrjs

WHich one is quicker to 60 and through the quarter

The Porsche.

[/thread]

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

I was talking about the manual 997S. That's 7 seconds. So kudos to the PDK box.

As you might know the Nordschleife also has a very very very long straight, in favour of the more aerodynamic and no speedlimited 997S...which makes it a bit more understandable.

Been there done that so to speak.

Anyway the 997S is faster. Period.

But imho it wasn't the better composed allround (fun) car , that's why I chose the E90 M3 and not the 997S and a 120d for the wife and kids.

I want you to know a few things about each of the laps in question. The 7:50 lap by the C2S was equipped similarly to the 8:05 lap that the M3 did, adaptive suspension, CUP+ rubber and LSD, the only difference is the gearbox. The 7:58 lap by the manual car was of stock rubber and I it's not known by me at least whether it had the same suspension. Another thing, you mentioned that the 997 was unlimited which suggests that the M3 was and to it's traditional 250km/h, fact is the car that did this run was equipped with the 280km/h limiter, a speed neither car reached.

I do agree that as an allrounder the M3 is better, but as the best driver's car between them that is most definitely the Porsche, as is the case in every comparison or category these two brands are tested in.