BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
EXXEL Distributions
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-25-2011, 08:27 AM   #1
spdu4ea
Custom User Title
United_States
9
Rep
105
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Proof of OE/Gintani dyno manipulation

A spin off of this thread: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504140


This is a serious accusation and one that I do not make lightly, but there is no doubt in my mind that this is Gintani/OE dyno manipulation and it should be brought to light. Here are some quick mathematical comparisons/analysis with other tuners to illustrate how extremely unlikely a flat percentage increase in power across the board is:

Active Autowerke:



rpm % gain
2500 12.0%
3000 11.1%
3500 6.8%
4000 7.9%
4500 7.1%
5000 4.3%
5500 8.0%
6000 11.1%
6500 12.3%
7000 6.9%
7500 6.6%
8000 9.0%



GIAC (tune+filter):



rpm % gain
2500 8.2%
3000 10.5%
3500 4.0%
4000 3.7%
4500 4.9%
5000 5.9%
5500 5.7%
6000 6.7%
6500 5.8%
7000 6.3%
7500 5.2%
8000 6.0%



Dinan (no graph)

6000 3.3%
8000 1.8%



ESS:



rpm % gain
2500 5.3%
3000 5.5%
3500 4.5%
4000 3.2%
4500 2.5%
5000 3.2%
5500 5.7%
6000 8.8%
6500 5.5%
7000 5.4%
7500 4.9%
8000 5.2%



OE*:



rpm % gain
2500
3000
3500 12.0%
4000 10.2%
4500 10.3%
5000 10.3%
5500 10.3%
6000 10.2%
6500 10.5%
7000 10.6%
7500 10.3%
8000 10.2%






Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Last edited by spdu4ea; 03-25-2011 at 11:59 AM.. Reason: removed Evolve from comparison per their request
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 08:30 AM   #2
spdu4ea
Custom User Title
United_States
9
Rep
105
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

Mike at Powerchip's own analysis:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
Just analyized the results and according to the data, it seems as if a dyno variable was modified inbetween the two runs which produced an inaccurate gain.

The first two graphs are cars that Jeremy dyno tuned himself from our Texas trip. You can see how the gain on the bottom end of the OP's new dyno is artificial.

Furthermore, the bottom graph shows the deviation. You can see that the third graph has an extremely low deviation and that further supports the presumption that a correction factor was applied, or an input variable was changed - causing the skew of the entire curve upward, instead of reflecting actual power related gains.

You can see the first two graphs have trouble with gain between 4000 and 5500, and then have a sizable gain through the midrange and top end. You can see the large gap inbetween the two curves on the third gap, which is not representative to how an M3 responds to tunes in that area. Also notable is that the largest increase in horsepower is between 4000 and 5500 RPM, which conflicts with the previous two cars that achieve their highest gain at later RPMs, and have the lowest gain at lower RPM's. The only thing that can explain this is an unwarranted correction to the graph to skew the results.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 08:38 AM   #3
ssabripo
HALA MADRID!
ssabripo's Avatar
United_States
937
Rep
2,877
Posts

Drives: camels & donkeys
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Plantation, Fl

iTrader: (7)

__________________

F87 M2 Competition, Sunset Orange, Exc, DCT.
**SOLD** F80 M3 Mineral Grey/Sakir Orange, Exc, DCT... ED 6/2015
**SOLD**E90 M3, Interlagos Blue / M individual two-tone, ZCP, ZP2, ZCV, DCT, ED.
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 08:40 AM   #4
M3_FTW
Private First Class
8
Rep
117
Posts

Drives: 2018 F90 M5 Comp
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dubai

iTrader: (0)

I have seen plenty plenty dyno graphs as well as had my own cars dynod. You will never ever get a linear gain like the OE/Gintani one is showing. They fucked with the dyno settings. Plain and simple.

From what i have read about OE/Gintani being involved in lawsuits, Jeremy stealing PC files etc. They dont seem like anyone I would like to do business with. ESS/AA FTMFW

Last edited by M3_FTW; 03-25-2011 at 08:45 AM..
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:30 AM   #5
e92Mjunky
First Lieutenant
United_States
111
Rep
395
Posts

Drives: E46 M3 S65 swap
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Austin, TX

iTrader: (0)

hmmm very intersting indeed, thanks for the information. Is the same Gintani that does the exhausts and forced induction stuff??
__________________
E46 M3 S65 swap
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:37 AM   #6
WCM3
Î canŧ főcus mŷ attėntĭon
WCM3's Avatar
United_States
72
Rep
1,406
Posts

Drives: 13 Rubicon
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Morgantown, Pa

iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e92Mjunky View Post
hmmm very intersting indeed, thanks for the information. Is the same Gintani that does the exhausts and forced induction stuff??
Yes same Gintani. But I feel like their exhausts are solid, and have shown gains on various dynos.
__________________
2011 M3 Coupe - Individual Fire Orange/Black Novillo Extended Leather, 6MT, Mode Carbon, Eisenmann Race, BBS CH-R, BC Coil-overs (Sold)
1995 M3 Coupe - Avus/Hurricane, AEM EMS, Precision Turbo, Boostlogic, H&R, Fikse FM/5, MaxVelocity, Maximum PSI, 20% Tint, etc etc..(Sold)
2009 M3 Coupe - AW/Fox Red, 6MT, Carbon Roof, Shadow Trim, etc (Sold)
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:38 AM   #7
KiokenM3
Lieutenant Colonel
KiokenM3's Avatar
84
Rep
1,504
Posts

Drives: LIFTED JEEP JK!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: LA

iTrader: (4)

here we go again!
__________________
Gintani SC ST2+, OE tuned, RPI GT EXHAUST=601WHP, 396TORQUE on 91pump. DYNOJET STD CF. SOLD
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:42 AM   #8
geneatals
Ninja
geneatals's Avatar
United_States
390
Rep
4,014
Posts

Drives: 2019 530e
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: So Cal (SFV)

iTrader: (3)

IBTL
__________________
2019 AW G30 530e l ZPP l ZMP l ZDH
Retired: 2016 F80 M3, 2012 E90 M3, 2008 535i
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:44 AM   #9
crummer
Private
crummer's Avatar
United_States
6
Rep
99
Posts

Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cbus, OH

iTrader: (1)

Oh, boy here goes my afternoon. Subscribed.
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:48 AM   #10
J08M3
Major General
J08M3's Avatar
United_States
285
Rep
6,007
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

iTrader: (8)



I'm guessing with a paying sponsor and the fanboys it won't take long before this thread get's locked
__________________
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:54 AM   #11
Kyoshi71
Colonel
Kyoshi71's Avatar
93
Rep
2,528
Posts

Drives: 2010 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

Here we go again... Jeremy, OE Tuning, Alex, Gintani, Sticky, Powerchip, G-Power, et al... In Before the LOCK..

The West Coast, with all it's sunshine, is just so shady.

IBTL
__________________
"But resist we much; we must; and we will much; about that be committed."
~Rev. Al Sharpton


2010 E92 M3|Silverstone II|M-DCT|NCSW|2MT|ZCW|ZPP|ZTP|302|507|Gas Guzzler Tax
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 09:56 AM   #12
Draff1
Private First Class
Draff1's Avatar
United_States
13
Rep
195
Posts

Drives: 2009 Silverstone M3 Coupe
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (0)

If that happens, I will consider this forum "for entertainment purposes only". I know this will hurt independent tuners universally but this is about information and transparency. I hope the truth comes out.
__________________
2009 Silverstone II E92 M3 Coupe - DCT
Dinan Exhaust, RPi scoops, Dinan Tune, Dinan Pulley, BMC filter, LCI Taillights, MS 15mm spacers, Huper Optik tint.
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:00 AM   #13
J08M3
Major General
J08M3's Avatar
United_States
285
Rep
6,007
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draff1 View Post
If that happens, I will consider this forum "for entertainment purposes only". I know this will hurt independent tuners universally but this is about information and transparency. I hope the truth comes out.
It'll help those who are really making quality products.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:02 AM   #14
Kyoshi71
Colonel
Kyoshi71's Avatar
93
Rep
2,528
Posts

Drives: 2010 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New York

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post


I'm guessing with a paying sponsor and the fanboys it won't take long before this thread get's locked
It's only 7:48 in Cali. The Fanboy Marching Band will be here soon enough.
__________________
"But resist we much; we must; and we will much; about that be committed."
~Rev. Al Sharpton


2010 E92 M3|Silverstone II|M-DCT|NCSW|2MT|ZCW|ZPP|ZTP|302|507|Gas Guzzler Tax
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:09 AM   #15
J08M3
Major General
J08M3's Avatar
United_States
285
Rep
6,007
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

iTrader: (8)

It's important for the forum for the truth to come out. Either forum users are paying money to a sponsor and getting a great tune, or forum members being cheated out of their money on a bogus scam. I don't know which it is, but for the sake of the bimmerpost community it should be brought to light.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:11 AM   #16
Krozi
Colonel
Krozi's Avatar
United_States
162
Rep
2,736
Posts

Drives: 2008 E92 ///M3 Alpine White
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: SoFla - Bonita Springs

iTrader: (24)

Oh yea..this is gonna be good lol
__________________

2008 E92 ///M3 Alpine White//Fox Red//6MT//
Florida Bimmer - Join us on FaceBook!
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:23 AM   #17
Captain
United_States
37
Rep
977
Posts

Drives: 991TTs
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)



since everyone else is saying it...
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:26 AM   #18
jmflukeiii
Captain
16
Rep
726
Posts

Drives: 2011 Jet Black M3 ZCP Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Tampa, FL

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by View Post


since everyone else is saying it...
Yeah but you have a sweet video to go along with it
__________________
2011.5 E92 M3 Jet Black, DCT, Competition, Premium 2, and Convenience Packages, Black Novillo, Enhanced Premium Sound, 15% Tint, Black Kidneys/Reflectors/Gills/Roundels, DINAN Full Exhaust, DINAN Tune.
2006 Range Rover Sport Supercharged Black everything.
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:48 AM   #19
Dave07997S
Brigadier General
710
Rep
3,948
Posts

Drives: 2020 Ford Mustang GT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: El Segundo, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyoshi71 View Post
It's only 7:48 in Cali. The Fanboy Marching Band will be here soon enough.
I hear the trumpets and the bass...
__________________
2020 Ford Mustang GT 6MT PP1 444rwhp
(Sold)2013 M3 Coupe-MR/BLK ZCP, 2011 M3 Coupe-MR/Blk
2007 Porsche 997C2S Speed Yellow/Blk sport seats
2004 BMW M3 Imola/Blk
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:57 AM   #20
spdu4ea
Custom User Title
United_States
9
Rep
105
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

For those complaining that the comparison wasn't fair because it wasn't stock vs tune...



RPM Stk OE rpm % gain
2500
3000
3500 165 168 3500 1.8%
4000 194 203 4000 4.6%
4500 217 227 4500 4.6%
5000 240 252 5000 5.0%
5500 262 275 5500 5.0%
6000 286 299 6000 4.5%
6500 305 320 6500 4.9%
7000 332 348 7000 4.8%
7500 338 355 7500 5.0%
8000 352 369 8000 4.8%


Stock vs OE on a dynojet:



speed % gain
55 9.9%
60 9.0%
65 6.4%
70 6.5%
75 8.3%
80 6.1%
85 5.7%
90 5.1%
95 4.9%
100 5.2%
105 4.4%
110 3.4%
115 1.7%

Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 10:57 AM   #21
m33
Banned
m33's Avatar
United_States
114
Rep
2,682
Posts

Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (5)

Wrong ..... Just plain wrong .... All the effort that gets put in to deceive people why don't they just steer that effort to actually bringing a product that works .....
Appreciate 0
      03-25-2011, 11:00 AM   #22
theriz
Brigadier General
United_States
406
Rep
3,583
Posts

Drives: 2017 M3
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Ventura County, CA

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2017 F80 M3  [0.00]
2011 335i M-Sport  [4.00]
2015 M3  [0.00]
2009 X5  [10.00]
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:25 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST