Car and Driver is, "Not crazy about the new M3."

[Ezio]

Originally Posted by mjposner

"Expressing well-informed opinions in sufficient numbers can affect corporate direction"

Well look at the well-informed opinions posted the last seven years about the M3:

1. needs more torque
2. needs better fuel economy
3. must be lighter
4. get rid of gas guzzler tax
5. Improve braking

So BMW did listen by bringing out a higher torque, better fuel economy, no gas guzzler tax ceramic brake option M3 and yet we still complain!

at the cost of having a shitty sounding motor ? no thanks.

BMW please try again!

[MrPrena]

Initially I really didn't care about the sound, until F1 V10 went to V8.
I realized that my favorite is V10 sound.
Then they went V8 to V6 w/ ERS (k and h). Now I really really care about the sound.

YES, I do care about the sound now.

[bigjae1976]

I'm sure its an awesome car. Just doesn't get me excited and chomping at the bit like the first time I saw the E92 M3. Then completely sold when I saw the E90 M3. I haven't driven one yet but my impression is that a lot of people don't like the added level of "immaturity" of the car. Aka...its apparent willingness for the rear end to step out. Maybe my excitement will increase once I drive one. But as I've said elsewhere...the F8X doesn't really seem THAT much better to warrant me to toss my E9X aside.

Really, takes a couple of days to get used to the electric power steering. After that, it feels normal.

[FogCityM3]

Will be interesting to get your feedback as an instructor, but at least from my perspective, in intermediate run groups, the F80 isn't blowing past everything in the track days i've attended…i.e. they get passed just as often by E90s and well honed E46s and vice-versa. It comes all down to drivers still and unless you're fairly advanced and/or the club level, you're not going to notice much of a difference car for car. Given that we don't go on the track for money, but to maximize the driving experience enjoyment, will be interesting to see if the experience is as gratifying or even of the same % of people buying the car track it vs prior generations.

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'm sure its an awesome car. Just doesn't get me excited and chomping at the bit like the first time I saw the E92 M3. Then completely sold when I saw the E90 M3. I haven't driven one yet but my impression is that a lot of people don't like the added level of "immaturity" of the car. Aka...its apparent willingness for the rear end to step out. Maybe my excitement will increase once I drive one. But as I've said elsewhere...the F8X doesn't really seem THAT much better to warrant me to toss my E9X aside.

Really, takes a couple of days to get used to the electric power steering. After that, it feels normal.

[FogCityM3]

Exactly. The higher profit margins on the new car is to BMW's (and the i-divisions benefit). While the new car has some definitive improvements over the old, this pretty much would have happened anyway with the passage of 7 years. This is why cars like GT350 gets so interesting…you know its a quasi halo car they're not making as much money on to promote the Ford brand and the consumer can take advantage of this condition to their benefit. I feel BMW could have made a much more interesting product that would have generated nothing but praises while checking the boxes of what people wanted improved. The only real thing they would have lost is profit per vehicle.

Originally Posted by Rupes

And none of the things above could be accomplished by improving the existing components of the old car? You make it sound like the direction BMW took was the only possible option.

This is the M way though, no consistency. 4 cylinder M3's, 6 cylinders, 8, then turbo 6. I just wish they would improve an existing platform like Porsche to continually fine tune. That's just not the way they do things though. Oh well...

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Will be interesting to get your feedback as an instructor, but at least from my perspective, in intermediate run groups, the F80 isn't blowing past everything in the track days i've attended…i.e. they get passed just as often by E90s and well honed E46s and vice-versa. It comes all down to drivers still and unless you're fairly advanced and/or the club level, you're not going to notice much of a difference car for car. Given that we don't go on the track for money, but to maximize the driving experience enjoyment, will be interesting to see if the experience is as gratifying or even of the same % of people buying the car track it vs prior generations.

You can say whatever...the FI engine is a game changer for using it as a track car. I think this will be very different long term vs previous generations.

The good thing is BMW can calibrate a lot of the "problems" away with the electronics. I also think that a lot of people drive the car in max attack mode which likely compromises performance. I didn't think the E9X M3 was fastest with every setting in max race car mode.

Time will tell...

[G80indy]

It's laughable how C&D took SO much heat for being BMW 3 series fanboys. If you have read the magazine since the early 90's you know what I mean. I think they wanted to like the M3/4.
For them to say this(!) -- it is indeed significant critique.

[FogCityM3]

So true..it took me a while to figure out that regular throttle and in some cases having dampers set to normal or comfort made for smoother and faster driving!

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

The good thing is BMW can calibrate a lot of the "problems" away with the electronics. I also think that a lot of people drive the car in max attack mode which likely compromises performance. I didn't think the E9X M3 was fastest with every setting in max race car mode.

Time will tell...

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

They may have taken an easy route on the engine block, but they did a lot of work to the engine itself. Closed deck, the tech to 'try' to eliminate lag, the extensive cooling they did, etc.
They did a lot of CF work to the car. Improved the 6MT, and many other things they did in pulling out the stops. The chasis is much more rigid, the adaptive suspensive is actually good now, they did extensive work on the EPS (even though its still a long, long, long ways off from Porsche), the tires are wider the track in front and rear is wider.
They certainly went all out when you look at the car as whole.

We will have to agree to disagree. They built a new car, so yes there was extensive testing...but "pulling out the stops," "going all out?" No.

The 6MT was a carryover from the 1M ( a NON-REAL-///M-car according to some). The brakes were a carryover from the parts bin. (No Brembos, etc.--Although certainly better than those in the E9X.)
The chassis of the F8X was more rigid than the model that preceded it, which is to be expected. They bolted the rear subframe to the chassis, introducing more NVH, in exchange for precision. Big deal. The EDC may be finer-tuned, but that is a technology that debuted in ///M3s with the E9X platform. The motor is closed block, but it is an N55 derivative, albeit with many internal modifications. I do agree they added a whole bunch of cooling capacity to the base motor. The EPS is a significant step backwards, and the exhaust noises have to be "augmented" through the stereo system (spare me the "it's ONLY .25%" argument, or they wouldn't have done it.) A wider wheel and tire set; oooooohhhh, astonishing engineering there. Lag, still present, although minimized. AFAIK, the track is wider front and rear in every ///M car than the model/chassis on which it is based. In fairness, the carbon fiber drive shaft IS cool.

To remind everyone how special the new car is, BMW illuminated the ///M logo in the seat and dash. Now that's pulling out all the stops!

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Exactly. The higher profit margins on the new car is to BMW's (and the i-divisions benefit). While the new car has some definitive improvements over the old, this pretty much would have happened anyway with the passage of 7 years. This is why cars like GT350 gets so interesting…you know its a quasi halo car they're not making as much money on to promote the Ford brand and the consumer can take advantage of this condition to their benefit. I feel BMW could have made a much more interesting product that would have generated nothing but praises while checking the boxes of what people wanted improved. The only real thing they would have lost is profit per vehicle.

This...EXACTLY!

[rngrjag]

Originally Posted by mjposner

"Expressing well-informed opinions in sufficient numbers can affect corporate direction"

Well look at the well-informed opinions posted the last seven years about the M3:

1. needs more torque
2. needs better fuel economy
3. must be lighter
4. get rid of gas guzzler tax
5. Improve braking

So BMW did listen by bringing out a higher torque, better fuel economy, no gas guzzler tax ceramic brake option M3 and yet we still complain!

This is very well put. I agree with everything you stated. I just don't agree that to remedy the criticisms mentioned above BMW had to throw out the baby with the bathwater and abandon the long-espoused high-revving, N/A concept.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

They may have taken an easy route on the engine block, but they did a lot of work to the engine itself. Closed deck, the tech to 'try' to eliminate lag, the extensive cooling they did, etc.
They did a lot of CF work to the car. Improved the 6MT, and many other things they did in pulling out the stops. The chasis is much more rigid, the adaptive suspensive is actually good now, they did extensive work on the EPS (even though its still a long, long, long ways off from Porsche), the tires are wider the track in front and rear is wider.
They certainly went all out when you look at the car as whole.

I just wish they put all that engineering gumption into making something new and exciting, or improving on what they had already accomplished, rather than scrambling to compensate. Instead of spending oodles of research hours making the F30's EPS less godawful and more tolerable, they could have taken an existing good steering rack and made it even better. Instead of spending all of their time re-creating an old-school JB4/meth/procede N55 335i with M3 parts that we've seen a million times before to be more reliable and less laggy, they could have been developing the S65/85, which as a number of mechanic shops have demonstrated, still have a lot of room to grow. And sure, they made the car a tad lighter, by borrowing carbon fiber shaft tech from 20 years ago (because they can now cheaply mass-produce it), and reducing material quality to the thinnest, cheapest-feeling crap they could find. The whole thing just feels uninspired. Less "how can we make a good thing even better", and more "what's the best we can do with what we have".

I don't know, I guess I'm just disappointed that they spent more time compensating than innovating, but the company has made it clear that its principles going forward are efficiency and being green above all. I do understand the political and economic pressure that prompted them to take this route, but I don't have to like it. I do hold out hope that their ever increasing volume will allow them to make a few truly niche enthusiast cars.

[superflywheel]

There's been plenty of press of BMWs long-term strategy of EV and the i-division and you can tell that that's where their attention has been. I'm sure it takes time and effort to make such a large shift that they're not able to focus as much on innovating the 'older' engineering. So I'm excited to see what comes out in the next 5 years or so and will throughly enjoy my E92 in the meantime.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by rngrjag

We will have to agree to disagree. They built a new car, so yes there was extensive testing...but "pulling out the stops," "going all out?" No.

The 6MT was a carryover from the 1M ( a NON-REAL-///M-car according to some). The brakes were a carryover from the parts bin. (No Brembos, etc.--Although certainly better than those in the E9X.)
The chassis of the F8X was more rigid than the model that preceded it, which is to be expected. They bolted the rear subframe to the chassis, introducing more NVH, in exchange for precision. Big deal. The EDC may be finer-tuned, but that is a technology that debuted in ///M3s with the E9X platform. The motor is closed block, but it is an N55 derivative, albeit with many internal modifications. I do agree they added a whole bunch of cooling capacity to the base motor. The EPS is a significant step backwards, and the exhaust noises have to be "augmented" through the stereo system (spare me the "it's ONLY .25%" argument, or they wouldn't have done it.) A wider wheel and tire set; oooooohhhh, astonishing engineering there. Lag, still present, although minimized. AFAIK, the track is wider front and rear in every ///M car than the model/chassis on which it is based. In fairness, the carbon fiber drive shaft IS cool.

To remind everyone how special the new car is, BMW illuminated the ///M logo in the seat and dash. Now that's pulling out all the stops!

I do agree for the most part on what they did, but I do feel as though they did as much as they could and really did work hard overall.
Turbo lag is always going to be there in a turbo car. The sad thing is for BMW, with turbos that small there really shouldnt be any.
The EPS is pure garbage. I knew right away when they said it was Porsche good that was some of the biggest BS I've ever heard and boy is it.
I mean I didnt expect this m3/4 to be the top echelon of turbo cars, which they very obviously are not, but its still overall a step forward in many areas over the e9x m3.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by modkrazy

I just wish they put all that engineering gumption into making something new and exciting, or improving on what they had already accomplished, rather than scrambling to compensate. Instead of spending oodles of research hours making the F30's EPS less godawful and more tolerable, they could have taken an existing good steering rack and made it even better. Instead of spending all of their time re-creating an old-school JB4/meth/procede N55 335i with M3 parts that we've seen a million times before to be more reliable and less laggy, they could have been developing the S65/85, which as a number of mechanic shops have demonstrated, still have a lot of room to grow. And sure, they made the car a tad lighter, by borrowing carbon fiber shaft tech from 20 years ago (because they can now cheaply mass-produce it), and reducing material quality to the thinnest, cheapest-feeling crap they could find. The whole thing just feels uninspired. Less "how can we make a good thing even better", and more "what's the best we can do with what we have".

I don't know, I guess I'm just disappointed that they spent more time compensating than innovating, but the company has made it clear that its principles going forward are efficiency and being green above all. I do understand the political and economic pressure that prompted them to take this route, but I don't have to like it. I do hold out hope that their ever increasing volume will allow them to make a few truly niche enthusiast cars.

I certainly think you make some very good points. Some aspects are very well engineered, and others they took the cheap way out.
In all fairness, all manuf. are moving towards more efficient cars...its just that some know how to do that and keep the passion (Porsche, Ferrari), character and excitement.

[aus]

No more best engine awards for //M cars.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/10/w...usauto00000016

.

[modkrazy]

Originally Posted by aus

No more best engine awards for //M cars.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/10/w...usauto00000016

.

Sheesh, 6.2L and only 450HP? Chevy makes some lazy-ass V8s.

[Kurt_OH]

http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/

[z3papa]

It doesn't make an E90/92/93 owner better to bash an F80/82, and nor does it make an F80/82 superior to that of an E90/92/93 owner by the mere fact you bought different versions of the M. Hey folks, we bought our cars for our reasons. What Car and Driver thinks does not phase me whatsoever. I'd like to think they appreciate what we appreciate but realistically there is way too much emphasis in those articles on aspects which don't impact my buying decisions.

[Eau Rouge]

Originally Posted by z3papa

It doesn't make an E90/92/93 owner better to bash an F80/82, and nor does it make an F80/82 superior to that of an E90/92/93 owner by the mere fact you bought different versions of the M. Hey folks, we bought our cars for our reasons. What Car and Driver thinks does not phase me whatsoever. I'd like to think they appreciate what we appreciate but realistically there is way too much emphasis in those articles on aspects which don't impact my buying decisions.

I agree with that.

The fact is that beyond the confines of this forum, one engine is recognized as a five year world class engine while other managed a third place finish to the N55 (top of the class) by IEOTY. http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/results.php?id=20

The inability to impress the IEOTY crew may explain the reactions of a lot of others about the F8x.

[rngrjag]

Eau Rouge don't forget, not in Ward's Best Engines either. Came out today.

The BMWs on the list? iWhatever, and Mini Cooper. Ouch.

[aus]

Originally Posted by Eau Rouge

I agree with that.

The fact is that beyond the confines of this forum, one engine is recognized as a five year world class engine while other managed a third place finish to the N55 (top of the class) by IEOTY. http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/results.php?id=20

The inability to impress the IEOTY crew may explain the reactions of a lot of others about the F8x.

This!!
Thank you. Many F8x owners are not old school //M owners and don't get why others are so upset about the new car.

If BMW dropped a 4.4 or 4.6 V8 DI engine with a flat plane crank making 480 HP in an F8x chassis, I would have ordered one as soon as my lease ended. Instead, I bought my E92 a few months ago. Now I'm reading about that Shelby GT350, and I can't believe I'm going to at least consider a Ford for my next car. I'm not saying I'll buy it, but I'm going to at least go look at it.

Anyone who doesn't think the magazine reviews affect sales, just has to look at the M5 sales. Dealers were discounting that car in a big way 2 years after it's intro. That' NEVER happened before for ANY //M car before... oh, and it got PANNED in all the magazines too.

.