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[W12x]

I have been looking for a set of wheels for my E92 and the TE37/SL seems to be a great option.

After a little bit of searching around, it seems like the original TE37 is truly forged, slightly heavier than TE37 SL, and more expensive than the SL.

The TE37SL is lighter(close to 1lb on some sizes), a little cheaper than the original, but some people say the SLs are not forged.

According to Ray's/Volk website, both TE37 and TE37SL are forged, but I didn't find any information on if they used the same forging process or not...

Can anyone enlighten me on the real differences between the TE37 and TE37 SL? It seems like the SL is superior performance wise and yet cheaper...?

[PINHEAD]

Real forging vs flow form forging.
Traditional forging is an expensive and time costly process therefore the cost is higher.

Flow form forging is casting 90% of the wheel and forging the last 10%, production cost is around 1/4 the cost of forging.
Many "forging" companies use flow form forging and call it forging but its not the same, but technically its forging. Most of those shit wheels I dont want to name names called their wheels "forged" are flow form forged.

Both are very strong but forging does have its benefits as the overall quality is much more guaranteed. Lightness is not due to the new technique, the SLs are just a much lighter wheel and weight saved by areas of the backpad being CNC'd away and also part of the spoke. Wheel for wheel, the original TEs are still just strong and lighter. Its the best of the best. In the end, the TE37SL is 90% a cast wheel.

Not to say cast wheels are not good, they are great. Many great wheels are cast and are very strong. Its all about manufacture quality. I'd rather have a 100% cast BBS wheel than a forged wheel from China or MHT. Stick with BBS/Rays(Volks)/Enkei/OZ and you are guaranteed a quality wheel.

[ashtaron14]

^ That's some great information, but I can't understand how 90% casting and 10% forging works.

General idea wise,
Casting is essentially pouring hot metal into a mold
Forging involves hammering/pressure/forces

Is that correct?

How about those wheels that are cut from a solid piece of Aluminum Alloy? (Or is that just a myth?)

[W12x]

Originally Posted by PINHEAD

Real forging vs flow form forging.
Traditional forging is an expensive and time costly process therefore the cost is higher.

Flow form forging is casting 90% of the wheel and forging the last 10%, production cost is around 1/4 the cost of forging.
Many "forging" companies use flow form forging and call it forging but its not the same, but technically its forging. Most of those shit wheels I dont want to name names called their wheels "forged" are flow form forged.

Both are very strong but forging does have its benefits as the overall quality is much more guaranteed. Lightness is not due to the new technique, the SLs are just a much lighter wheel and weight saved by areas of the backpad being CNC'd away and also part of the spoke. Wheel for wheel, the original TEs are still just strong and lighter. Its the best of the best. In the end, the TE37SL is 90% a cast wheel.

Not to say cast wheels are not good, they are great. Many great wheels are cast and are very strong. Its all about manufacture quality. I'd rather have a 100% cast BBS wheel than a forged wheel from China or MHT. Stick with BBS/Rays(Volks)/Enkei/OZ and you are guaranteed a quality wheel.

Thank you for this great information!

I have heard of flow form before, but it was flow form cast which BBS mentioned in the description for some of their wheels...I suppose flow form forge and flow form cast are somewhat similar techniques....(and probably rotary forge too)

Like you said there are many great cast wheels, but I think I will stick to TE37 instead of the SL version

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by ashtaron14

^ That's some great information, but I can't understand how 90% casting and 10% forging works.

General idea wise,
Casting is essentially pouring hot metal into a mold
Forging involves hammering/pressure/forces

Is that correct?

How about those wheels that are cut from a solid piece of Aluminum Alloy? (Or is that just a myth?)

Yes that is essentially casting. Flow form forging is just like it sounds. They cast the wheels to its initial shape, then it is forged to give it strength, and then finally depending on which company and wheel, some final CNC machining to finish the wheel.

For example I know most 8000ton forged wheels like TE37, are not actually pressed in a forging press of 8000 ton but rather 2000 ton over time, depending how many instance in this time 4, equating to 8000 ton forging.
Similar technique used to make Samurai swords so strong, pressure over time, repeate the process. This is why true forged wheels are so expensive because it is time consuming, but only top manufactures produces their premium wheels like this ie. TE37, BBS LM/LM-R/FI.
There are also many other weighted forging this is only one way but its a more common way. Truck wheels are usually 8-12k ton forging.
TE37SL will be cast into its designated shape and size and then forged with 2000 ton forge as one of the final steps to give a cast wheel extra strength, which is why its so much cheaper to manufacture. Personally I think SL is a rip-off. It cost 1/4 the cost to manufacture yet they sell it for 80% of the price and put some fancy words and diagrams to show what is new on the wheel, and people buy that shit up like its the best thing since sliced bread. Although at the end of the day, the TE37SL is still a great wheel.

The wheels that are CNC from a solid piece of aluminum alloy are usually flow form forged wheels. The solid piece of billet is usually forged, then it is CNC to the wheel shape. They are mass produced in China, then shipped to the US and then CNC machined here. Many manufactures claim that their wheels are "made in USA" will resort to this technique while anything that gives the wheel its strength and quality was done in China. The only thing done here is the CAD design usually via Solidworks or AutoCAD, then finished via CNC'ing to the desired shape/offset/concave.

I only know these information because my family is in the business of manufacturing forging press for many of the worlds top wheel manufactures. A lot of this information is off the top of my head so Im not 100% about them but Im pretty sure. And from that background, I will tell you the price you pay for a brand of wheel like BBS and Rays, is well worth it for the certifications they have. Thee testing process is a big part of the cost and the quality and certification they receive proves it. China wheel manufactures will tell you otherwise because they have to sell wheels, but its junk and will be junk forever. Stick with a known brand and you cant go wrong; forged, cast or flow form forged, its all good stuff.

Originally Posted by W12x

Thank you for this great information!

I have heard of flow form before, but it was flow form cast which BBS mentioned in the description for some of their wheels...I suppose flow form forge and flow form cast are somewhat similar techniques....(and probably rotary forge too)

Like you said there are many great cast wheels, but I think I will stick to TE37 instead of the SL version

Again its just how they decide to name their manufacturing technique. Its roughly the same thing some manufactures will disclose what it is, some wont. Its mostly marketing.

[SignatureJames]

guys due to all this misinformed technical details going around about the whole TE37 vs. TE37SL, I just went straight to the source, Rays Engineering to get you the final say on their products.

Pinhead, and to the m3post community members...

This is straight from RAYS in an email I sent them regarding this post –

Your info is incorrect.

The TE37 and the TE37 SL are both 100% Mold forged. There are NO Volk Racing wheels that are Cast, Flow Formed etc..

The difference is that the TE37 SL utilizes an updated mold that has some areas thicker for strength and some areas that are CNC’d to reduce weight where it isn’t necessary. The TE37, although still industry leading – is an old wheel, therefore we found many areas to improve. The lower price was initially brought about to make up for the difference with exchange rates for the overseas market as a limited model, but due to the popularity (and the price) the SL’s and subsequent versions have took over most of the sales. Updated TE37 is in the works.

Your response to how the TE37 is made is also incorrect as well.

RAYS utilizes 8000 ton and 10,000 ton press that press the wheel individually with 8000 tons of pressure (larger diameter and more complicated shapes use 10K press) – In the TE37’s 18inch case – there will be 2 strikes with an 8000 ton press to make the basic spoke shape. Then RAYS utilizes a RAYS only RM3000 process where utilizing a mold from the top and bottom – the shape is forged together while in a spinning process to extrude the rim section – hence a 3D forging which allows for best control of grain flow.

W12x – if you have any questions regarding wheel manufacturing please contact the manufacturer and we’ll be more than happy to explain.

[fonka]

PINHEAD, I think you are misinformed. RAYS does not use the flow form forged process. I have weighed true forged and flow form, there is a significant weight difference between the two. I have owned both TE37 and TE37SL, on the track they are the lightest and strongest wheels I have used to date. RAYS is positively TRUE FORGED.

[slicer]

Interesting info! Thank you

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by jsyang15

guys due to all this misinformed technical details going around about the whole TE37 vs. TE37SL, I just went straight to the source, Rays Engineering to get you the final say on their products.

Pinhead, and to the m3post community members...

This is straight from RAYS in an email I sent them regarding this post –

Your info is incorrect.

The TE37 and the TE37 SL are both 100% Mold forged. There are NO Volk Racing wheels that are Cast, Flow Formed etc..

The difference is that the TE37 SL utilizes an updated mold that has some areas thicker for strength and some areas that are CNC’d to reduce weight where it isn’t necessary. The TE37, although still industry leading – is an old wheel, therefore we found many areas to improve. The lower price was initially brought about to make up for the difference with exchange rates for the overseas market as a limited model, but due to the popularity (and the price) the SL’s and subsequent versions have took over most of the sales. Updated TE37 is in the works.

Your response to how the TE37 is made is also incorrect as well.

RAYS utilizes 8000 ton and 10,000 ton press that press the wheel individually with 8000 tons of pressure (larger diameter and more complicated shapes use 10K press) – In the TE37’s 18inch case – there will be 2 strikes with an 8000 ton press to make the basic spoke shape. Then RAYS utilizes a RAYS only RM3000 process where utilizing a mold from the top and bottom – the shape is forged together while in a spinning process to extrude the rim section – hence a 3D forging which allows for best control of grain flow.

W12x – if you have any questions regarding wheel manufacturing please contact the manufacturer and we’ll be more than happy to explain.

Volk and BBS are the only companies that I believe have the 8000/10000 ton machines. My understanding is there are only two to three in existence.

[InspireSiR]

"Updated TE37 is in the works."

Is Rays coming out with another version after the SL? Do we know when this will be released and what the improvements could possibly be?"

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by InspireSiR

"Updated TE37 is in the works."

Is Rays coming out with another version after the SL? Do we know when this will be released and what the improvements could possibly be?"

They may be alluding to the TE37RT. Right now they are only available in red. I believe the majority of the changes are in the logos witch are etched into the rim. I heard this was an effort to reduce the amount of "Reps".... The etched RTs will be difficult to duplicate and pass as authentic.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by JEllis

Volk and BBS are the only companies that I believe have the 8000/10000 ton machines. My understanding is there are only two to three in existence.

Unless NEEZ uses the same factories, they also produce a 8000 ton forged rim. Interesting that they are all Japanese wheels.

[JEllis]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Unless NEEZ uses the same factories, they also produce a 8000 ton forged rim. Interesting that they are all Japanese wheels.

Yep, Neez is the third company that I could not think of. I know there are a few brands that are made by some of the larger manufacturers as well.

[PINHEAD]

Originally Posted by jsyang15

guys due to all this misinformed technical details going around about the whole TE37 vs. TE37SL, I just went straight to the source, Rays Engineering to get you the final say on their products.

Pinhead, and to the m3post community members...

This is straight from RAYS in an email I sent them regarding this post –

Your info is incorrect.

The TE37 and the TE37 SL are both 100% Mold forged. There are NO Volk Racing wheels that are Cast, Flow Formed etc..


You do know most of the things you just said makes no sense from a company and manufactures point of view and sounds like pure marketing?
Fine, they are "Mold forged", instead of "Flow Form Forged". How does that make a difference? They are very similar techniques that was developed to speed up time and reduce cost of the forging process....

The difference is that the TE37 SL utilizes an updated mold that has some areas thicker for strength and some areas that are CNC’d to reduce weight where it isn’t necessary. The TE37, although still industry leading – is an old wheel, therefore we found many areas to improve. The lower price was initially brought about to make up for the difference with exchange rates for the overseas market as a limited model, but due to the popularity (and the price) the SL’s and subsequent versions have took over most of the sales. Updated TE37 is in the works.

Yes, an updated mold and manufacturing process most likely on a new assembly line that can produce more wheels using less material with less time. AKA MOLD FORGING if you want to call it that. Yes the final CNC result is a bit different from the original TE37, different CAD design obviously. Wouldn't that make up more of the "cost difference" compared to the original TE37 than "produced in limited model, but priced lower to make up for exchange rates for overseas market?".....

Your response to how the TE37 is made is also incorrect as well.

RAYS utilizes 8000 ton and 10,000 ton press that press the wheel individually with 8000 tons of pressure (larger diameter and more complicated shapes use 10K press) – In the TE37’s 18inch case – there will be 2 strikes with an 8000 ton press to make the basic spoke shape. Then RAYS utilizes a RAYS only RM3000 process where utilizing a mold from the top and bottom – the shape is forged together while in a spinning process to extrude the rim section – hence a 3D forging which allows for best control of grain flow.

2 stirkes at 8k forging is fine. Every manufacture use a different technique, concept is the same. Pressure + time. That is how forging works. Okay that is how original TE37 are made, but what about the TE37SL? or did they gloss over that? Like I said, the original TE37s shape is manufacturing during the actual forging process, not while it was "MOLD" or "FLOWED", but what about the SL? The RM3000 is a machine that is in conjunction with CAD for the final design and finish of the wheel. I already explained this before.

W12x – if you have any questions regarding wheel manufacturing please contact the manufacturer and we’ll be more than happy to explain.

LOL so you went to Rays to get information about their product? Thats like going to Microsoft and ask why the xbox is better than PlayStation. Regardless they're both great and Rays are great wheels.
FYI MOLD FORGE is a similar process to flow form forging....maybe you should read into HOW its made instead of what the MANUFACTURE says. How do I make it more clear? Most wheels nowadays are made in a similar fashion. I simply put manufacture process information out there if you guys want to believe the marketing hype and the fancy words. You do realize what Rays said to you is basically what I described in my previous post about how its manufactured, abit different but similar concept? LOL....
but again go weight the wheels and read brochures and fancy "explain it like Im 5" marketing. At the end of the day its still a great wheel SL or not. Manufacturing cost is manufacturing cost. Simple as that. New technology makes things easier and cheaper while holding 90% of the benefits of traditional manufacturing techniques.

Simple fact is manufacturing process is updated, much savings, profits had. Thus why the SL was popular. At the end of the day is still a great wheel like I said. Stop reading too much into the marketing and justifying SL purchase vs Original TE37.

Again Im rambling and I can go much more into this but I dont really care. I am not trying to spread "misinformation" im simply informing members how wheels are manufactured and how they're price is reflected. Bottomline, both are great wheels. One was made using more traditional forging methods that has been proven to produce premium quality metal components for decades. The other is manufactured using a technology adapted from that with a focus on saving manufacturing cost/time and materiel.

[JEllis]

Found this on edmunds.... not sure if its relevant it or not.

Forged wheels are not all alike. If you were to squeeze a slab of metal and then machine away anything that didn't look like a wheel, you'd end up with what would technically be a forged wheel. This is the way many forged wheels are made -- a billet or forged solid metal pancake is CNC-machined all over, and out pops a wheel. However, in machining all the surfaces of the pancake, those critical grain flows in the microstructure are interrupted, and the strength of the finished part is thus compromised.

The way Rays forges their wheels is far more involved and results in a near-net shape part (see below for a visual approximation of the resulting grain flows) that requires little machining. They call their process mold form forging, and it is a type of progressive-die forging.

Here's how Rays process works. A slab of 6061 aluminum is heated and forged in order to increase its density. Then the slug is forged again to flesh out the features on the face of the wheel. Next, Rays applies a 10,000-ton press -- theirs is said to be the highest-tonnage press anywhere in Japan -- to the slab while it is spun, refining the wheel face and forming the rim portion. This working of the metal strengthens it.

Any remaining metal between the spokes is then punched out, then the rim region is cold-spun and formed. After a heat treatment is applied, the details of the wheel are finish-machined, magnafluxed, shot-peened and painted. Many of the wheel's primary load-bearing features require no machining at all, so the grain remains unmolested.

As you might imagine, Rays' mold form forging process is capital- and knowledge-intensive, and the resulting parts are expensive. According to the company, BBS is the only other wheel manufacturer on the globe with this kind of capability.

[m3z]

Originally Posted by PINHEAD

LOL so you went to Rays to get information about their product? Thats like going to Microsoft and ask why the xbox is better than PlayStation. Regardless they're both great and Rays are great wheels.
FYI MOLD FORGE is a similar process to flow form forging....maybe you should read into HOW its made instead of what the MANUFACTURE says. How do I make it more clear? Most wheels nowadays are made in a similar fashion. I simply put manufacture process information out there if you guys want to believe the marketing hype and the fancy words. You do realize what Rays said to you is basically what I described in my previous post about how its manufactured, abit different but similar concept? LOL....
but again go weight the wheels and read brochures and fancy "explain it like Im 5" marketing. At the end of the day its still a great wheel SL or not. Manufacturing cost is manufacturing cost. Simple as that. New technology makes things easier and cheaper while holding 90% of the benefits of traditional manufacturing techniques.

Simple fact is manufacturing process is updated, much savings, profits had. Thus why the SL was popular. At the end of the day is still a great wheel like I said. Stop reading too much into the marketing and justifying SL purchase vs Original TE37.

Again Im rambling and I can go much more into this but I dont really care. I am not trying to spread "misinformation" im simply informing members how wheels are manufactured and how they're price is reflected. Bottomline, both are great wheels. One was made using more traditional forging methods that has been proven to produce premium quality metal components for decades. The other is manufactured using a technology adapted from that with a focus on saving manufacturing cost/time and materiel.

and how is it that everyone including rays is wrong and you know how its made? do you work for a wheel company such as rays or bbs? or are you basing it off some chinese forging manufacturing process cause your families in the business?

[Tracyis300]

Instead of trying to explain how Rays makes there wheels? Just go on YouTube! There's a clip that show you a step by step process on how they are made