UPDATE - Purchased a 2011 sedan, stick, comp pkg, mileage <45k

[-BEASTMW-]

The ZCP shocks themselves are different as well, so I don't think you'll get the full effect, whatever that might be, from just coding.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

The ZCP shocks themselves are different as well, so I don't think you'll get the full effect, whatever that might be, from just coding.

Yup, they are definitely different part numbers mentioned in a previous thread:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=411923

MY08+ JDM shocks (EDC) are the same shocks as MY10 M3 Edition shocks, and MY11+ ZCP shocks. MY08+ JDM M3s also come with non-EDC shocks, and I believe those are the same shocks now being used on the 1M. .

A different part number might just be the spring perch update and perhaps something changed in the shock length to accommodate the 10mm drop. Bilstien replacement shocks for EDC are identical for both ZCP and non-ZCP alike so I can't imagine it be vastly different outside the variable dampening settings for the Sport mode vs static 75% stiffness.


edit: found some more in that thread:

This is not true, the spring perch is at the same place. but the shaft is 12mm shorter on the ZCP front ones, for the rear the shaft is 6mm shorter

For the ZCP EDC, right after flash the whole car feels firmer than before for all the settings. I think this might be done to offset the slightly lowered right height so that the car won't bounce too much and hit the bump stop too often (my theory). Even thought the whole suspension is stiffer, it is still compliant for small bumps, and now even the Sport EDC is smoother over small bumps unlike the non-ZCP EDC fixed value which is stiff all the time.

Originally Posted by e92M3C

Finally completed my full ZCP suspension install.

What I feel following my course of ZCP mods:
1. OEM non-ZCP's Comfort mode is really comfortable, and Normal mode, well, normal. However, the Sport is quite harsh because there is no dynamic control and all the small and big bumps feel harsh.

2. After ZCP coding done by Mike Benvo, the entire car became stiffer for all the three modes. Good thing is that the Sport mode becomes a lot more compliant over small bumps. Still harsh over large bumps but the control is much better.

3. After ZCP suspension install, the entire car now becomes softer than after just with the ZCP coding, which makes me think that the ZCP coding must be use in conjunction with the ZCP suspension dues to the strut-reading by the EDC computer. Now all three modes are back to OEM non-ZCP feel but the Sport mode is now a lot more compliant. The difference between Comfort and Sport is not as dramatic as with non-ZCP but you can still feel the difference, especially hard cornering.

Conclusion:
I think for anyone who'd like to retrofit ZCP-suspension to non-ZCP M3, you need to get both the suspension and ZCP EDC coding for the entire system to work correctly. Simply install ZCP suspension or just upgrade ZCP software is not enough because the computer might not be reading the strut correctly, evident from the fact that my ZCP-coded only becomes stiffer for all three modes. In this case, I think the ZCP-coded EDC computer interpreted non-ZCP strut to be under rebound (because non-ZCP is 10mm higher) and hence pre-stiffen the struts.

As far as the lowering goes, before ZCP suspension I had 2.5 fingers gap at front and 1 at the back. After the lowering, 2 front and 0.5 back.

Hope this helps.

I'm still going to flash my non-ZCP EDC to ZCP lol

[BOOF-M3]

I'm still going to flash my non-ZCP EDC to ZCP lol[/QUOTE]


So Derbo, what is the total cost of the conversion. This is key for buyers like OP. Typically we are talking about a $3,000 to $10,000 premium more or less for ZCP cars. Plus you are limited to what is available. Now that the world is available... Plus we can factor in selling off the 220 wheels for a decent price (can still keep them for a set of snow tires). The OEM suspension pieces probably are not worth much as I have seen others giving them away. And this would be wheels, suspension pieces and possible coding only. What is the total cost to convert to ZCP?

Then taking into account if OP and others find 2008 and 2009 cars with the old Idrive and tail lights. That could be a separate total to factor.

My last question is on the cars that do not have the M button. If you are retrofitting the the Idrive then would one program one of the buttons on the wheel to act like the M button?

[BimmerRules!]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Yeah, it really depends on what your objectives are for a car. If you want something like a 2011 slicktop 6MT E90 with low mileage, garage kept, etc, and you actually find it w/o ZCP, buy it. There are so few of them imported finding one like that now is next to impossible. As for performance reasons, ZCP is nothing worth spending extra money on (personal opinion, just as the opposite is also) since the lowered springs have the same rate as the stock ones, and all you get at that point is 1/2" wider and heavier wheels and different tuning of the EDC in its stiffest more. The E9x M3 is already short on bump travel stock as Steve Dinan has shown in a white paper ages ago (one reason Dinan developed a lowering solution with about 1/2" extra bump travel; using their rear shock mounts are useful for many potential suspension setups).

If you are really interested in better handling, buying a set of lightweight/strong Apex 10"/10.5" (or 11" rear) wheels and some TCK DA coilovers will not only ride better than the stock or ZCP car but be a good bit more responsive, have higher limits, better ultimate grip. Just the Apex wheels alone will save close to 5lbs per corner of unsprung weight not to mention the reduced rotational inertia.

So anyway, it all comes down to your objectives/plans for your car. If you're trying to find a car you can flip to EAG in a year and do no mods on, only looking for a ZCP option car is the way to go. On the other hand, if you hunt in the "other market" (non-ZCP), you'll likely find a lot better deal available (speaking only about 2011 E90 here).

First - thank you. Actually I can't thank mark and you enough for the so many pointers that go deep into the package and how the car is impacted.

Second - addressing your last para: I can guarantee that after receiving such splendid education on the various useful points, I will never sell my car to EAG. (That is assuming I find one!)

My 2 cents: As seen in the wide price divergence, there seems to be a perception - whether fair or unfair - that cars with the original comp pkg are worth more. I think this is more a fad and prices will come down eventually.

[UPSROD]

There is more of a premium for the ZCP in the E90 because of the one year only rarity, there were quite a few more ZCP E92's made then non ZCP's....IMO most try to get the same money for a std. coupe as they do for a ZCP. If the buyer knows the difference it would probably be a good negotiating point to get a non ZCP coupe cheaper. I only watch 2013's, but don't see a noticable premium for ZCP E92's over the std. E92.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

So Derbo, what is the total cost of the conversion. This is key for buyers like OP. Typically we are talking about a $3,000 to $10,000 premium more or less for ZCP cars. Plus you are limited to what is available. Now that the world is available... Plus we can factor in selling off the 220 wheels for a decent price (can still keep them for a set of snow tires). The OEM suspension pieces probably are not worth much as I have seen others giving them away. And this would be wheels, suspension pieces and possible coding only. What is the total cost to convert to ZCP?

Then taking into account if OP and others find 2008 and 2009 cars with the old Idrive and tail lights. That could be a separate total to factor.

My last question is on the cars that do not have the M button. If you are retrofitting the the Idrive then would one program one of the buttons on the wheel to act like the M button?

Thats a good question. If a buyer is adamant of getting it EXACTLY what the factory ZCP package offers, I would assume this list:

1. $1000 ZCP Springs/Dampeners used(set going for $400 here:http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1417581)
2. $1200-1600 Style 359 Wheels Used without tires (few sets for that price in the marketplace right now)
3. $1200 Tires, assuming proper real tires like PSS.
4. $50-300 NCSexpert + BMW DCAN Cable for coding the ZCP (7MA) vehicle order to change the EDC/DSC. Dependent on User knowledge of the BMW Coding or pay for the service.

So I guess the OP would be looking at ~$4k to "convert" it. Is it worth it? For me, absolutely not.

In my own personal situation, I'm just more intrigued how ZCP EDC settings will affect the non-ZCP EDC dampeners. From what I read, it stiffens up the suspension and would be an improvement of the factory sport mode. For that reason, I plan to coding it even without the ZCP Dampeners. I aim to replace my springs at a minimal, so this will beneficial until I figure out if I want to remove EDC and go with a true coilover or get a EDC compatible coilover like B16 Damptronic.

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by derbo

Thats a good question. If a buyer is adamant of getting it EXACTLY what the factory ZCP package offers, I would assume this list:

1. $1000 ZCP Springs/Dampeners used(set going for $400 here:http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1417581)
2. $1200-1600 Style 359 Wheels Used without tires (few sets for that price in the marketplace right now)
3. $1200 Tires, assuming proper real tires like PSS.
4. $50-300 NCSexpert + BMW DCAN Cable for coding the ZCP (7MA) vehicle order to change the EDC/DSC. Dependent on User knowledge of the BMW Coding or pay for the service.

So I guess the OP would be looking at ~$4k to "convert" it. Is it worth it? For me, absolutely not.

In my own personal situation, I'm just more intrigued how ZCP EDC settings will affect the non-ZCP EDC dampeners. From what I read, it stiffens up the suspension and would be an improvement of the factory sport mode. For that reason, I plan to coding it even without the ZCP Dampeners. I aim to replace my springs at a minimal, so this will beneficial until I figure out if I want to remove EDC and go with a true coilover or get a EDC compatible coilover like B16 Damptronic.

Ok so with a definite on ZCP wheels or Apex's and with the possibility of coding only, it could be a $2,000 conversion which again opens up all E90 cars which gives you the look and "possibly" the same handling. Im also thinking stick with 2011 E90 so as to have one with LCI which obviously gives you tail lights, M button on wheel and updated
I-Drive. I would say we have a winner Rajan. At least you are on track to buy one for mid to high 30's rather than pay the extortion prices EAG is charging for around $46,000.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

Ok so with a definite on ZCP wheels or Apex's and with the possibility of coding only, it could be a $2,000 conversion which again opens up all E90 cars which gives you the look and "possibly" the same handling. Im also thinking stick with 2011 E90 so as to have one with LCI which obviously gives you tail lights, M button on wheel and updated
I-Drive. I would say we have a winner Rajan. At least you are in track to buy one for mod to high 30's rather than pay the extortion prices EAG is along around $46,000.

Exactly.


2009 sedans get the updated taillights and CIC navigation. 2010 gets revised climate control with heated seats in the center of the controls. 2011.5 (9/2010 build date) includes the combox for Bluetooth streaming music capabilities.

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by derbo

Exactly.


2009 sedans get the updated taillights and CIC navigation. 2010 gets revised climate control with heated seats in the center of the controls. 2011.5 (9/2010 build date) includes the combox for Bluetooth streaming music capabilities.

Yea my cars are 2011.5 builds. I personally would not want to go backwards but at a minimum 2009 would be an option for him. Funny how you rarely see 2010 M3's of any body style for sale or forum members cars. Well Derbo I would say you have done a great service for OP and others. Thank you.

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

Yea my cars are 2011.5 builds. I personally would not want to go backwards but at a minimum 2010 would be an option for him. Funny how you rarely see 2010 M3's of any body style for sale or forum members cars. Well Derbo I would say you have done a great service for OP and others. Thank you.

Why a minimum of 2010 when 2009 is basically identical?

The reason there are so few 2010s is the economy was, erm, not so good around 2009-10. You see the same thing with 2009-11 911s/Boxster/Caymans, which sucks because those were really good years...

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

Why a minimum of 2010 when 2009 is basically identical?

The reason there are so few 2010s is the economy was, erm, not so good around 2009-10. You see the same thing with 2009-11 911s/Boxster/Caymans, which sucks because those were really good years...

I stand corrected, I would go with 2009. And that makes sense on the economy. And lots of great 2009 cars for sale by forum members and 2008 cars did that matter.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by BOOF-M3

Yea my cars are 2011.5 builds. I personally would not want to go backwards but at a minimum 2010 would be an option for him. Funny how you rarely see 2010 M3's of any body style for sale or forum members cars. Well Derbo I would say you have done a great service for OP and others. Thank you.

Definitely! The Bluetooth streaming audio combos is probably a $500-$700 retrofit for a 2009+ ULF Bluetooth. Personally I can live without it for now.

All I really did was dig around for my own benefit when hunting the perfect sedan. I'm glad I can share what I discover with others.

M registry FAQ shows the differences throughout production. http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=50

hat changes were made during the production of the E90, E92 and E93 M3?
—M Double Clutch Transmission (M DCT) introduced as an option (2/08)
—Chrome accents added to various interior trim pieces (9/08)
—E90 M3 sedan LCI introduced featuring revised taillight design with luminous strips and LED turn signals (9/08)
—Sparking Graphite metallic (A22) paint replaced by Space Grey metallic (A52) paint (9/08)
—Le Mans Blue metallic paint (381) introduced (9/08)
—Active headrests added to front seats (9/08)
—Optional iDrive upgraded to second-genration version with hard buttons (9/08)
—Revised climate control panel with integration of (optional) heated seat buttons (9/09)
—Automatic High-Beam Control introduced as an option in North America (9/09)
—E92 M3 coupe and E93 M3 convertible LCI introduced featuring revised LED taillight design (3/10)
—Competition Package (ZCP) introduced as an option for E90 M3 sedan and E92 M3 coupe (3/10)
—E92 M3 coupe and E93 M3 convertible available with Mineral White metallic (A96) paint (6/10)
—Automatic engine start/stop functionality introduced (9/10)
—Upgraded Bluetooth functionality including audio streaming introduced (9/10)
—18-inch Style 219M/260M alloy wheels receive bright silver finish in place of Ferric Grey finish (9/10)
—Manually-adjsutable front seats introduced on E90 M3 sedan and E92 M3 coupe in the USA only (9/10)
—Bi-color Novillo leather upholstery in two different combinations (Palladium Silver + Black or Fox Red + Black) offered for E90 M3 sedan and E92 M3 coupe in USA only (9/10)

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by UPSROD

There is more of a premium for the ZCP in the E90 because of the one year only rarity, there were quite a few more ZCP E92's made then non ZCP's....IMO most try to get the same money for a std. coupe as they do for a ZCP. If the buyer knows the difference it would probably be a good negotiating point to get a non ZCP coupe cheaper. I only watch 2013's, but don't see a noticable premium for ZCP E92's over the std. E92.

Exactly the point on the E90 ZCP. 2011 only and therefore only 1220 ZCP E90s were imported to North America; there are 2367 w/o that option. EAG purposely tries to corner a market with a low supply and then market it like madmen to ensnare as many as possible to then lust after their choice. When the market keeps rewarding them with huge $$ for following their business plan, I guess you can't blame them. However, they've been disingenuous about 2001 E39 M5s by spreading 100% incorrect information about them on forums and to potential customers, even after being informed (of what they likely knew all the time...that the *only* difference in the S62 found in 2001 M5s with a build date of 11/2000+ and ones built 09/2001+ is a Vanos lock plate change which has shown a zero failure rate on M5board; not to mention EAG sells 2001 Z8s with the identical engine and doesn't bad mouth those).

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Exactly the point on the E90 ZCP. 2011 only and therefore only 1220 ZCP E90s were imported to North America; there are 2367 w/o that option. EAG purposely tries to corner a market with a low supply and then market it like madmen to ensnare as many as possible to then lust after their choice. When the market keeps rewarding them with huge $$ for following their business plan, I guess you can't blame them. However, they've been disingenuous about 2001 E39 M5s by spreading 100% incorrect information about them on forums and to potential customers, even after being informed.

Could you elaborate?

[derbo]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Exactly the point on the E90 ZCP. 2011 only and therefore only 1220 ZCP E90s were imported to North America; there are 2367 w/o that option. EAG purposely tries to corner a market with a low supply and then market it like madmen to ensnare as many as possible to then lust after their choice. When the market keeps rewarding them with huge $$ for following their business plan, I guess you can't blame them. However, they've been disingenuous about 2001 E39 M5s by spreading 100% incorrect information about them on forums and to potential customers, even after being informed (of what they likely knew all the time...that the *only* difference in the S62 found in 2001 M5s with a build date of 11/2000+ and ones built 09/2001+ is a Vanos lock plate change which has shown a zero failure rate on M5board; not to mention EAG sells 2001 Z8s with the identical engine and doesn't bad mouth those).

It's quite sad that their business model does work and they will continue doing so as long as people continue to throw money at them for these prime examples. I'm sure they have folks whose primary job is to just scour the forums and classifieds to pick up these gems. Their higher resources available for the hunt makes it difficult for the average joe to notice the for sale ad. And when EAG offers more money than the average joe, most sellers just wants top dollar so off the car goes to EAG. It's sad reality of capitalism as it's best.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by derbo

It's quite sad that their business model does work and they will continue doing so as long as people continue to throw money at them for these prime examples. I'm sure they have folks whose primary job is to just scour the forums and classifieds to pick up these gems. Their higher resources available for the hunt makes it difficult for the average joe to notice the for sale ad. And when EAG offers more money than the average joe, most sellers just wants top dollar so off the car goes to EAG. It's sad reality of capitalism as it's best.

EAG is always hunting all forums, all sources for ads, and when someone puts up a decent deal (likely without knowing a lot about the market for their car), EAG contacts, asks a few questions, and then offers their asking price or close (too good to turn down for many) with an immediate wire transfer of funds. A few days later they pick up the car. Makes it super easy for the seller to accept the deal.

Back in early 2012 a good friend was selling his 2011 E92 ZCP, and he had it on various spots asking a very reasonable (at the time) price of $52k, then started lowering over the next few months. The car was immaculate and low mileage, etc. After fooling with potential buyers flaking, lowballing, not serious, etc, he contacted EAG and they paid $47k with immediate wire xfer. Car was picked up 3-4 days later. It was on their website asking $57k, and it sold almost immediately. They had to do *nothing* to the car, physically, and it was still under BMW's factory warranty including maintenance anyway.

So it's weird stuff like that which makes you wonder where that buyer was for the prior 3-4 months when the car could have been purchased for $7-8000 cheaper from the owner...

[derbo]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

EAG is always hunting all forums, all sources for ads, and when someone puts up a decent deal (likely without knowing a lot about the market for their car), EAG contacts, asks a few questions, and then offers their asking price or close (too good to turn down for many) with an immediate wire transfer of funds. A few days later they pick up the car. Makes it super easy for the seller to accept the deal.

Back in early 2012 a good friend was selling his 2011 E92 ZCP, and he had it on various spots asking a very reasonable (at the time) price of $52k, then started lowering over the next few months. The car was immaculate and low mileage, etc. After fooling with potential buyers flaking, lowballing, not serious, etc, he contacted EAG and they paid $47k with immediate wire xfer. Car was picked up 3-4 days later. It was on their website asking $57k, and it sold almost immediately. They had to do *nothing* to the car, physically, and it was still under BMW's factory warranty including maintenance anyway.

So it's weird stuff like that which makes you wonder where that buyer was for the prior 3-4 months when the car could have been purchased for $7-8000 cheaper from the owner...

I think that is the most frustrating part. That particular buyer is willing to shell out $8000 to "trust" EAG for the exact car your friend sold to them. The market is just strange sometimes.




Anyone looking for a ZCP just has to figure out if the 3 items are worth hunting for. The rarity like the others here has mentioned shows about 1200 or so ZCP optioned sedans. I would imagine less than 50% of those are 6MT. If you finite the other packages you want, it will further reduce the cars that match. Now how many of those that match are for sale..

What is the Competition Package and what does it consist of?
The Competition Package, known by the internal designation "ZCP", was introduced in March of 2010 as an option for the E90 M3 sedan and E92 M3 coupe in all worldwide markets. It consists of the following equipment:
—10mm shorter springs
—Electronic Damping Control with revised software parameters, including continuously-variable shock firmness in Sport mode
—Exclusive Y-spoke (Style 359M) cast alloy wheels in staggered 9x19-inch (front) and 10x19-inch (rear) sizes

[BimmerRules!]

Questions -

1. can a car not have comp pkg (S7MAA) and yet have only EDC (S223A).

2. Derek - what is the source for that that blurb (What is the Comp Pkgs...) in the bottom of your post? I ask because it does not mention the software adjustment. Think you and others mentioned that in the earlier posts.

Thanks!

[BimmerRules!]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

Why a minimum of 2010 when 2009 is basically identical?

The reason there are so few 2010s is the economy was, erm, not so good around 2009-10. You see the same thing with 2009-11 911s/Boxster/Caymans, which sucks because those were really good years...

Fascinating insight into why not many 2010s around, thanks!

Given all the tweaks/adjustments that the car companies usually make, especially BMW with LMIs, I automatically went to the last year when that model was produced (which is 2011 for the sedans).

[UPSROD]

Originally Posted by BimmerRules!

Questions -

1. can a car not have comp pkg (S7MAA) and yet have only EDC (S223A).

2. Derek - what is the source for that that blurb (What is the Comp Pkgs...) in the bottom of your post? I ask because it does not mention the software adjustment. Think you and others mentioned that in the earlier posts.

Thanks!

No, the EDC, (S223A) is a stand alone option available from the beginning of the Ex9x series M3.

[BOOF-M3]

Originally Posted by BimmerRules!

Fascinating insight into why not many 2010s around, thanks!

Given all the tweaks/adjustments that the car companies usually make, especially BMW with LMIs, I automatically went to the last year when that model was produced (which is 2011 for the sedans).

You also went for the 2011 because that was the only year for ZCP in the Sedan. You are really limited in what you are looking for. Therefore my about face on adding ZCP and possibly saving thousands.

[derbo]

Originally Posted by BimmerRules!

Questions -

1. can a car not have comp pkg (S7MAA) and yet have only EDC (S223A).

2. Derek - what is the source for that that blurb (What is the Comp Pkgs...) in the bottom of your post? I ask because it does not mention the software adjustment. Think you and others mentioned that in the earlier posts.

Thanks!

1. EDC is optional but standard in ZCP with different EDC settings
2. http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=50


If you also want some brochures, I found good quality ones from here. 2011_V1 includes the sedan, where the 2011_v2 removes the sedan from the brochure.

http://www.auto-brochures.com/bmw.html